Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#691

Post by tomp » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 12:00 AM UTC

GVIrish wrote: post #244

lbj wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"open everything up despite it being relatively clear it was way too early" It probably wasn't. There have been 2 major studies on the effects of covid-lockdown measures, they show a small increase in total mortality. So we should have done as the Swedes and kept everything open from beginning to end.

Sweden did worse than the other Scandinavian countries that enacted stricter Covid restrictions, including lockdowns. Sweden had roughly 5-7x as many deaths per capita as its immediate neighbors of Norway and Finland. Germany had less deaths per capita as well: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

This is often repeated fake news.

Take a look at this graph - cumulative deaths since, I don't know, start of 2021 or something.

https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explor...

Sweden is just barely worse than other Scandinavian countries (definitely not 5-7x). Germany is 50-100% worse than Sweden.

So while you might use "total deaths" as an argument that the Swedish "no lockdowns" strategy was worse at the beginning of the pandemic, it's clearly superior now.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#692

Post by ikrenji » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 12:01 AM UTC

bruce343434 wrote: post #666

MrDresden wrote: post #509

My partner was diagnosed with cervical cancer a couple of months ago and is now on the brink of starting radio- & chemotherapy. Due to the covid situation here in the Netherlands the treatment may not go ahead as planned, and treatment might get delayed, due to the new measures. I then know of people who's heart surgaries have been delayed 5x times due to the stress covid is putting on the health care system in anoth…

With the recent evidence of spiking infections and other events, I am no longer convinced vaccines are a good measure. The Netherlands is 85% vaccinated. They said we would get herd immunity at only 70%, and yet here we are with talks of "boosters", at the brink of yet another lockdown, due to yet another spike in infections. I think we need to simply get sick at large, get better and stay immune. We need to get it o…

no thank you. you let your body be ravaged by an exotic viral disease from asian bats. I will take my booster

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#693

Post by Thiez » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 12:02 AM UTC

snidane wrote: post #662

timdaub wrote: post #369

I find it ironic that there are plenty comments that paint the picture of how mandatory vaccinations divide the country. Hello? Have you been awake for the last month? How much more divided can a country already be when the absolute democratic majority has made their decision months ago to take the shot but 30% are holding everyone back. Anyone in my family or from my friends that has taken one for the team (and got…

Thay's why constitutions exist. So that any 1% cannot be abused by the 99%. Pure democracy means 51% can wipe out the 49%, Rwanda style.

In most countries a 99% majority is very much sufficient to amend the constitution.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#694

Post by sasaf5 » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 12:05 AM UTC

bruce343434 wrote: post #666

MrDresden wrote: post #509

My partner was diagnosed with cervical cancer a couple of months ago and is now on the brink of starting radio- & chemotherapy. Due to the covid situation here in the Netherlands the treatment may not go ahead as planned, and treatment might get delayed, due to the new measures. I then know of people who's heart surgaries have been delayed 5x times due to the stress covid is putting on the health care system in anoth…

With the recent evidence of spiking infections and other events, I am no longer convinced vaccines are a good measure. The Netherlands is 85% vaccinated. They said we would get herd immunity at only 70%, and yet here we are with talks of "boosters", at the brink of yet another lockdown, due to yet another spike in infections. I think we need to simply get sick at large, get better and stay immune. We need to get it o…

Or you can get the same result from vaccines, without having to kill a few %.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#695

Post by atsaloli » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 12:05 AM UTC

Invictus0 wrote: post #529

atsaloli wrote: post #442

I was born in Soviet Russia, where the party line was: there is no God, there is no Soul, there is no Truth, and truth is what we tell the people. My family came to America to get away from that savage society and to live in a free country, based on voluntary cooperation (free market) not force and violence and coercion. In communism, the group is all and the individual is nothing. I do not believe it is okay to viol…

The legality of the government forcing a medical procedure for the common good been decided by the supreme Court nearly 100 years ago. There is no specific "liberty" that is being violated here.

I have seen violations of human rights. Those are the freedoms I was referring to.

See the UN Declaration of Human Rights: https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-huma...

Article 13 - right to freedom of movement (lockdowns, anyone?)

Article 20 - right to peaceful assembly (lockdowns again)

Article 24 - right to work (mandatory vaccination as a condition of employment)

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#696

Post by chippy » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 12:06 AM UTC

timdaub wrote: post #530

chippy wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its worth remembering that division is due to the other side always . This is an absolute statement as division is literally caused by dividing between "sides". You get a divided country when the people within it divides each other into sides. Its never been the case when people have said "our side has caused the division". never. That is the irony you should be finding! If you do finally see this irony you might fin…

And how exactly does this statement now help to address the situation?

I would hope it might help you with your observation about the division of the country, and with your feeling of irony on another subject, and using both of these skills towards understanding.

So for the situation in general: if enough people are less divisive, perhaps a less divided country can occur.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#697

Post by ostenning » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 12:06 AM UTC

monksy wrote: post #421

Just a heads up about what is happening in Germany: (Just got back Monday from Hamburg) 1. Entry restriction: You must be vaccinated to enter from nonEU countries (Vaccation must be in the approved list) 2. Most restaraunt/bars/outdoor gatherings are either 2G/3G. The bahn is 3g (so testing as well). Nearly everything else is 2G. This includes the food hall in the airport. Enforcement is at entry. You must show your…

Does this vaccination entry requirement exist for residents?

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#698

Post by rglullis » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 12:06 AM UTC

timdaub wrote: post #369

I find it ironic that there are plenty comments that paint the picture of how mandatory vaccinations divide the country. Hello? Have you been awake for the last month? How much more divided can a country already be when the absolute democratic majority has made their decision months ago to take the shot but 30% are holding everyone back. Anyone in my family or from my friends that has taken one for the team (and got…

- You can be against mandatory vaccinations and not be an anti-vaxxer.

- "Herd immunity" is only a secondary desired trait for the vaccine. The primary one should be that the individual that gets the vaccine will have a stronger immune system and less likely to be severely sick. I got it for my own benefit, not because I want to be nice to others.

- The vaccine was sold as a one-shot thing. I think that the vaccine is safe enough for its risks to outweighs the benefits if it was only once. If periodic boosters start getting required, the calculus changes.

- Where does it stop? Let's not forget that the whole thing with lockdowns was to flatten the curve and to avoid the health care system to collapse. These should've been seen as temporary measures so that we could improve the healthcare system so that it could respond properly. Instead, it has become a perma-threat with no end in sight.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#699

Post by bruce343434 » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 12:06 AM UTC

sasaf5 wrote: post #694

bruce343434 wrote: post #666

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the recent evidence of spiking infections and other events, I am no longer convinced vaccines are a good measure. The Netherlands is 85% vaccinated. They said we would get herd immunity at only 70%, and yet here we are with talks of "boosters", at the brink of yet another lockdown, due to yet another spike in infections. I think we need to simply get sick at large, get better and stay immune. We need to get it o…

Or you can get the same result from vaccines, without having to kill a few %.

So far I have gotten sicker from my vaccines than the coronavirus. I am NOT going to get boosters, fuck that. I'm not going to get revaccinated every once in a while. Sorry, humanity can deal with it. Vaccines don't work well enough, clearly.

I did everything right. I got vaccinated. I isolated. I endured lockdown. I did not go out frivolously. I wore masks when I needed to go out anyway. What could I have done differently? This whole thing, it's just not working. I want freedom back.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#700

Post by lend000 » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 12:06 AM UTC

timdaub wrote: post #369

I find it ironic that there are plenty comments that paint the picture of how mandatory vaccinations divide the country. Hello? Have you been awake for the last month? How much more divided can a country already be when the absolute democratic majority has made their decision months ago to take the shot but 30% are holding everyone back. Anyone in my family or from my friends that has taken one for the team (and got…

While I offer no opinion about whether vaccinations should be compulsory, it must be stated that if they should, it certainly isn't because of your argument about pure democracy. In a pure democracy, 90% of the population can choose to oppress the other 10%, and they have, many, many times throughout history.

If vaccinations should be made mandatory in a free society, it is solely due to the externality imposed by the unvaccinated on others (like you mentioned with ICU capacity, as well as general pathogen propagation), and avoiding that violation of the broader public's freedoms.