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Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

cnn.com

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Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#641

Post by spookthesunset »

MauranKilom wrote: post #445
spookthesunset wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So uh, maybe we decide that life doesn’t need to be permanently centered around Covid and just move on? And realistically that is what society will do. Move on. There are infinitely more problems in the world than just Covid. Solving for exactly Covid to the exclusion of literally everything else is complete madness. Any rational person will tell you that. Life is to short to maintain a Covid centric lifestyle… life…

So what do you do with the infected people that turn up at the overcrowded hospital? Let them die on the street? Overall COVID19 mortality is still around 2%. In Germany, for example, we currently have 100k deaths. That would increase fivefold if you let every currently unvaccinated person get infected, and that's assuming we can provide the same level of care for all of them (i.e. hospitals are not over capacity). >…

> Overall COVID19 mortality is still around 2%.

It’s not even close to that. Not even in the same ballpark.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#642

Post by hfj6gghgf »

elvis10ten wrote: post #463
timdaub wrote: post #369

I find it ironic that there are plenty comments that paint the picture of how mandatory vaccinations divide the country. Hello? Have you been awake for the last month? How much more divided can a country already be when the absolute democratic majority has made their decision months ago to take the shot but 30% are holding everyone back. Anyone in my family or from my friends that has taken one for the team (and got…

Not everybody who hasn’t taken the vaccine is an antivaxxer. I think a distinction needs to be made between anti vaxxers and people who are just naive/“dumb”. I have seen more of the later group. Which is why I’m surprised when someone here or in mainstream media says this has anything to do with a political side. This distinction is useful IMO in creating sound policies.

Finally someone who doesn't abuse the word antivaxer.

An enourmous majority of people who choose to not take this particular vaccine are not antivaxers.

Or maybe the meaning of the word has evolved and I'm out of the loop. In my vocabulary it is someone who doesn't believe in/take any vaccines.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#643

Post by detaro »

jl6 wrote: post #604

I guess it’s easier to pass a law like this, than a law which puts the unvaccinated at the back of the queue when hospital beds run out.

Extremely so. And hopefully also more effective at reducing overall harm short-term - after all triage rules would only decide who dies, not reduce deaths, you don't want to be in the situation that there is a queue! (And remember, you don't get to make a queue over everybody in the ICU, but only whoever is currently incoming)

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#644

Post by the_why_of_y »

EricE wrote: post #551
worik wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that everybody should get vaccinated. Let's make this virus extinct. But what you describe is majoritarianism. It is a form of democracy but a very weak form. For a lot of people, who are from minority groups, it is indistinguishable from totalitarianism. Why do 30% of people refuse to get vaccinated? (here in Aotearoa it is 5%). Something is happening, people are getting left behind, in vast numbers. Forcing…

> Let's make this virus extinct. Here's the core problem - unrealistic expectations. Even the CDC has backed off from the whole "make the virus extinct" mantra; they haven't spouted it for over a year now. Which is a good thing - it was utterly ridiculous from day one. This virus isn't going away. It is carried by animals. You going to vaccinate every animal that we all come in contact with? Ha! You are not going to…

> there has be zero confirmation from the CDC or vax makers that the vax provides any protection against Delta

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7044e1.htm

For the next secondary analysis, aORs for hospitalizations that occurred before and during SARS-CoV-2 B.1.617.2 (Delta) variant predominance (June–September 2021) were compared, beginning on the date the Delta variant accounted for >50% of sequenced isolates in each medical facility’s state (2).

...

In this multistate analysis of hospitalizations for COVID-19–like illness among adults aged ≥18 years during January–September 2021 whose previous infection or vaccination occurred 90–179 days earlier, the adjusted odds of laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 were higher among unvaccinated and previously infected patients than among those who were fully vaccinated with 2 doses of an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine without previous documentation of a SARS-CoV-2 infection. Secondary analyses that did not adjust for time since infection or vaccination or adjusted time since infection or vaccination differently as well as before and during Delta variant predominance produced similar results.

...

In this U.S.-based epidemiologic analysis of patients hospitalized with COVID-19–like illness whose previous infection or vaccination occurred 90–179 days earlier, vaccine-induced immunity was more protective than infection-induced immunity against laboratory-confirmed COVID-19, including during a period of Delta variant predominance.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#645

Post by redmare80 »

chippy wrote: post #449
timdaub wrote: post #369

I find it ironic that there are plenty comments that paint the picture of how mandatory vaccinations divide the country. Hello? Have you been awake for the last month? How much more divided can a country already be when the absolute democratic majority has made their decision months ago to take the shot but 30% are holding everyone back. Anyone in my family or from my friends that has taken one for the team (and got…

Its worth remembering that division is due to the other side always . This is an absolute statement as division is literally caused by dividing between "sides". You get a divided country when the people within it divides each other into sides. Its never been the case when people have said "our side has caused the division". never. That is the irony you should be finding! If you do finally see this irony you might fin…

>Its worth remembering that division is due to the other side always.

When the other side is a small minority that is contributing to horrible public health outcomes, then yes, absolutely due to them.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#646

Post by enjo »

kelnos wrote: post #601
chippy wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its worth remembering that division is due to the other side always . This is an absolute statement as division is literally caused by dividing between "sides". You get a divided country when the people within it divides each other into sides. Its never been the case when people have said "our side has caused the division". never. That is the irony you should be finding! If you do finally see this irony you might fin…

If 70% want one thing and 30% want another, it doesn't matter who "caused" the division; in a democratic society you should be doing the thing that 70% of the people want. Except! And this is a big "except": when doing the thing the majority wants would violate the civil rights of the minority. The problem (in the US, at least; I can't speak for Germany) is that the minority is trying to paint vaccination as a civil…

Is agency over ones body not a civil rights issue? I'm fully vaccinated and even boostered, but I'm extremely uncomfortable telling other people that they have to do something to their own body.

And I don't think taking vaccines (usually as a child) by mandate in the past changes the ethics of it.

I think it's fair for there to be consequences to refusing the vaccine. Your work may decide they don't want to expose their staff to an unvaccinated human... so you may lose your job. Government may decide that the risk of sitting inside with someone unvaccinated is too high so you may not be welcome at certain businesses. Maybe you have to wear a mask when others don't.

That doesn't cross a line to me, but saying "you absolutely must take this vaccine or we're going to use the force of government to make you" does.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#647

Post by EricE »

ivan_gammel wrote: post #594
worik wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that everybody should get vaccinated. Let's make this virus extinct. But what you describe is majoritarianism. It is a form of democracy but a very weak form. For a lot of people, who are from minority groups, it is indistinguishable from totalitarianism. Why do 30% of people refuse to get vaccinated? (here in Aotearoa it is 5%). Something is happening, people are getting left behind, in vast numbers. Forcing…

In a democracy nobody has absolute freedom and minorities do not enjoy protections of the rights to threaten others. If 30% of the people do not get vaccinated without valid reason, they violate the right of others to live and stay healthy. It is scientifically established fact that vaccination reduces health risks for the public, so vaccination mandate will be based on the same constitutional grounds as speed limits…

How do unvaccinated people violate vaccinated people's rights?

If you have so little faith that the vaccine can protect you, then why did you take it and why are you advocating others should be forced to?

Also even if 100% of all humans were to take it you do realize that vaccinated people can carry and spread it (asymptomatically, no less) and that animals can carry and spread it too?

Thinking that unvaccinated people violate anyone's rights is utterly ridiculous; it's far more selfish than what your ilk love to accuse those who don't want to take the vaccine of.

This virus is NOT going away. So people might as well get that pipe dream out of their heads right now. It's time to stop letting emotion drive these conversations and get rational as well as realistic.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#648

Post by balzy »

rafaelero wrote: post #616

It's fairly ironic how the demographics of antivaxxers (mostly right-wingers) are very keen to patriotic duties (and will probably recruit you to war when time comes), but couldn't even take a vaccine to attenuate a pandemy. That will be remembered.

Most aren't anti-vaxxers, they just don't like this pretty novel particular vaccine. In Germany, real anti-vaxxers traditionally have a more left/green background. The sort of people who believe in homeopathy and traditional Chinese medicine.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#649

Post by codr7 »

jokethrowaway wrote: post #583
timdaub wrote: post #369

I find it ironic that there are plenty comments that paint the picture of how mandatory vaccinations divide the country. Hello? Have you been awake for the last month? How much more divided can a country already be when the absolute democratic majority has made their decision months ago to take the shot but 30% are holding everyone back. Anyone in my family or from my friends that has taken one for the team (and got…

Honestly, I think it's time we start splitting countries. I don't want to live in the same country as people like you who have no concern about human rights, freedom and individualism. I don't want a majority controlled with biased media and internet to decide for my life.

The polarization has been accelerating like mad lately, pretty soon we won't be able to live together in peace.

And I suspect that's the problem they're aiming for to get an excuse to implement the police state solution.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#650

Post by abduhl »

tablespoon wrote: post #603
chippy wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its worth remembering that division is due to the other side always . This is an absolute statement as division is literally caused by dividing between "sides". You get a divided country when the people within it divides each other into sides. Its never been the case when people have said "our side has caused the division". never. That is the irony you should be finding! If you do finally see this irony you might fin…

>> I find it ironic that there are plenty comments that paint the picture of how mandatory vaccinations divide the country.... >> How much more divided can a country already be when the absolute democratic majority has made their decision months ago to take the shot but 30% are holding everyone back. > Its worth remembering that division is due to the other side always. That's an unhelpful muddying of the waters. If…

If only we could apply such a black and white view to things like racism and LGBTQ rights.
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