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Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

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Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just became fully vaccinated and each day since I am dealing with dizziness / lightheaded-ness spells. Everyone should take one for the team you say but do you know what the future holds for the team? You just trust emphatically what the early science says vs. waiting over time to see all of it's effects on a huge population? That and time is the true bellweather but we are forced guinea pigs to join the experiment…

> I just became fully vaccinated and each day since I am dealing with dizziness / lightheaded-ness spells. May I ask: how long have these apparent vaccination related symptoms been going on?

Are you looking for a reason to discount his comment because it doesn't fit within your worldview but he hasn't provided enough data for you to discount yet?

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#622
post #484
post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that everybody should get vaccinated. Let's make this virus extinct. But what you describe is majoritarianism. It is a form of democracy but a very weak form. For a lot of people, who are from minority groups, it is indistinguishable from totalitarianism. Why do 30% of people refuse to get vaccinated? (here in Aotearoa it is 5%). Something is happening, people are getting left behind, in vast numbers. Forcing…

Vaccinations are too leaky to "make this virus extinct". Within a few months of vaccination, half or more of people can get mild, but still transmissable, cases of Delta. (Omicron is likely worse; there are already multiple reports of mild cases among those with recent 3rd booster shots.) Honest epidemiologists have been warning about this risk since 2020, and more forcefully when confirmed by early vax results in 20…

Forget how leaky they are - COVID can also be carried/transmitted by animals. For anyone who thinks all we have to do to vaccinate everyone - "everyone" includes all the animals humans do or could come in contact with. You going to do that too?

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#623
post #551
post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that everybody should get vaccinated. Let's make this virus extinct. But what you describe is majoritarianism. It is a form of democracy but a very weak form. For a lot of people, who are from minority groups, it is indistinguishable from totalitarianism. Why do 30% of people refuse to get vaccinated? (here in Aotearoa it is 5%). Something is happening, people are getting left behind, in vast numbers. Forcing…

> Let's make this virus extinct. Here's the core problem - unrealistic expectations. Even the CDC has backed off from the whole "make the virus extinct" mantra; they haven't spouted it for over a year now. Which is a good thing - it was utterly ridiculous from day one. This virus isn't going away. It is carried by animals. You going to vaccinate every animal that we all come in contact with? Ha! You are not going to…

> So it's more virulent, but less bad

I think you mean more transmissible, less virulent.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#624
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only are they forcing the unvaccinated to get the shot, they are also forcing everyone who is fully vaccinated to get booster shots every 6 months for the indefinite future. When the vaccines were first introduced their validity was fixed at 12 months and their was talk about extending it ("because they are so incredibly effective").

Not sure what to say without being labeled an anti vaxxer... I was very sick for a week after each shot. I'm 30, I work from home, I work out, I'm lean and only go out when running in the forest and buy food. I can't possibly know what would happen if I caught covid, but I wish the vaccination (I'm already vaxxed, but I mean the boosters) was my choice. With my reaction to the vaccines, it's two weeks a year guarante…

What were your symptoms?

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#625
post #75

In Denmark we have now reached 90% vaccination rate. We have more infected, the same number of admissions in hospital and a 15% higher death rate than all of 2020. I really fail to see why we are blaming the unvaccinated and not Pfizer/Moderna.

Even if this was true (which it isn't) the main difference is that you have only minor "lockdown"-measures in Denmark right now which is very different compared to 2020. Vaccines push down the R-Value significantly so you can keep everything open while still having a manageable pandemic.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So true and not mentioned enough by the media. The fact that we lost more than 4000 ICU beds over last year (during the Corona pandemic!!) because of personnel shortage is mind-boggling. Instead of rewarding those who worked these horrible jobs and maybe attract new workers with better conditions (e.g. more holidays), better pay or tax reduction, our politicians did campaigning and ignored the upcoming winter. Now th…

With exponential spread, the actual number of ICU beds really doesn't matter, because whatever you've got will be overwhelmed across a similar timeframe anyway. The only way to actually fix the problem is to get the R-value below 1, which requires mass vaccinations.

People who claim that "people don't understand exponential growth" don't understand it themselves, most of the time.

They're so proud that they can answer the question about what happens to the pond that is half-covered by sea lilies the next day but never think about what happens the day after that.

tldr: There is no persistent exponential growth in nature.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#627

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just became fully vaccinated and each day since I am dealing with dizziness / lightheaded-ness spells. Everyone should take one for the team you say but do you know what the future holds for the team? You just trust emphatically what the early science says vs. waiting over time to see all of it's effects on a huge population? That and time is the true bellweather but we are forced guinea pigs to join the experiment…

Try ivermectin. It helps with vaccine injury too.

Not sure if your comment is sarcastic or not but I sit in the middle ...on the fence and there's no better bellweather then time ...long periods of time and it's data to make the best decision for me!

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#628

I think the biggest unsung problems in this saga, is actually one of marketing. The average person has experience with vaccines that have 3 properties: (1) long lasting, (2) prevent contagion (3) and major symptoms. By calling the mRNA shot a vaccine , the WHO and CDC transferred such properties to the shot. That may have been great for encouraging adoption, but also comes with consequences particularly if two vaccin…

Right. Even knowing the facts it's hard to not buy into the hype to some degree.

In the end, the only things I personally care about regarding the benefits of any vaccine are:

1) not having some horrible/painful/debilitating long term condition from getting sick

2) not dying

3) not spreading it to others

Even if the marketing said it would only prevent severe disease but you'd still catch it just as easily, I'd have still have been among the first to show up for the shot. Promising it as some panacea is going to leave people disappointed.

I can't grasp what mix of societal factors is causing the lack of will to be vaccinated. The two best cases for widespread support of vaccines that I can think of are Smallpox and Polio. Smallpox was a worldwide effort to eradicate a disease that had been a scourge on society for a thousand years. The wealthy countries of the world sent doctors to every corner of the Earth to vaccinate people to ensure its eradication.

"Normal" smallpox killed 1 in 3, the rarer hemorrhagic form killed >90% of those infected. The survivors also faced a lifetime of hardship from damage it inflicted.

Polio had a fatality rate of 2-5% in children and 15-30% in teens and adults. Of all the cases, 1 in 200 had permanent paralysis.

I just don't get it. No one is dying horribly of measles, mumps, rubella, typhus, diphtheria, polio, smallpox, etc. because of vaccines and antibiotics. It's almost like COVID's lethality is at a magic point where most people are extremely concerned about it, but it's low enough where doubt persists because people aren't keeling over in the streets.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... but 30% are holding everyone back. Not at all and I can turn that argument back: I know non-vaccinated people who stay at home and "evil" fully vaccinated people who go out. It is a fact that vaccinated people can still carry and transmit the virus. It is also a fact that in the EU 40 to 60% of all ICU beds are filled with fully vaccinated people (40% in Spain atm but the number is going up, 50% in Belgium, 60%…

> 40 to 60% of all ICU beds are filled with fully vaccinated people Though correct, this is a dumb statistic used to peddle antivax propaganda. As vaccination rates rise, this number also rises. If 100% of people were vaccinated, 100% of all Covid ICU patients would be vaccinated. Spain has quite high vaccination rates, which is why this ratio is so high there.

Also 40-60% is a big margin. Is that Covid ICU beds, or total ICU beds?

What percentage of ICU beds are treating strictly Covid patients? My understanding is that it's ~73% of people in Netherlands are fully vaccinated.

If this is all ICU beds (and not just Covid ICU patients) - then you would expect 73% of x% (where x is greater than 50%) to be fully vaccinated patients.

Therefore, you're still in a world where unvaccinated patients are 9-10x more likely to be in an ICU bed. But you get this "data point" anti-vax people can spread that "It's actually the vaccinated people clogging up the beds!!"

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#630
post #486

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So true and not mentioned enough by the media. The fact that we lost more than 4000 ICU beds over last year (during the Corona pandemic!!) because of personnel shortage is mind-boggling. Instead of rewarding those who worked these horrible jobs and maybe attract new workers with better conditions (e.g. more holidays), better pay or tax reduction, our politicians did campaigning and ignored the upcoming winter. Now th…

It is mentioned enough by the media. Thank you. But it seems strange to realize that people don't want to do a job where you have to watch people die like flies over the course of two to three weeks. No money in the world makes that acceptable for many. With the availability of the vaccines (at least in the developed world) this has become a pandemic of the uninformed know-it-alls ("Querdenker" = Crooked thinker, as…

More money and better shifts and not firing unvaccinated would fill the gap.
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