Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#491

Post by WinstonSmith84 » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:34 PM UTC

crooked-v wrote: post #115

fileeditview wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So true and not mentioned enough by the media. The fact that we lost more than 4000 ICU beds over last year (during the Corona pandemic!!) because of personnel shortage is mind-boggling. Instead of rewarding those who worked these horrible jobs and maybe attract new workers with better conditions (e.g. more holidays), better pay or tax reduction, our politicians did campaigning and ignored the upcoming winter. Now th…

With exponential spread, the actual number of ICU beds really doesn't matter, because whatever you've got will be overwhelmed across a similar timeframe anyway. The only way to actually fix the problem is to get the R-value below 1, which requires mass vaccinations.

wrong - many countries kept everything opened and the curve subsided after a while. It doesn't go to the infinite.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#492

Post by xafnuaetrf8764 » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:35 PM UTC

purerandomness wrote: post #462

atsaloli wrote: post #442

I was born in Soviet Russia, where the party line was: there is no God, there is no Soul, there is no Truth, and truth is what we tell the people. My family came to America to get away from that savage society and to live in a free country, based on voluntary cooperation (free market) not force and violence and coercion. In communism, the group is all and the individual is nothing. I do not believe it is okay to viol…

I was also born in Soviet Russia. It's hard to unlearn toxic ideas and relearn to trust in rational thinking, but it can be done. Don't let your upbringing fool you.

Другими словами, когда все вокруг сосут хуй ради общего блага, не западло и самому пососать, так выходит?

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#493

Post by helge9210 » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:35 PM UTC

timdaub wrote: post #369

I find it ironic that there are plenty comments that paint the picture of how mandatory vaccinations divide the country. Hello? Have you been awake for the last month? How much more divided can a country already be when the absolute democratic majority has made their decision months ago to take the shot but 30% are holding everyone back. Anyone in my family or from my friends that has taken one for the team (and got…

> Besides, it's in everyone's best interest to get vaccinated.

No. Some are OK with the risk.

> this is a democracy

If all the possible choices for the vote are supported by all the parties. If there are unacceptable choices, this is just a dictatorship of the majority.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#494

Post by standardUser » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:35 PM UTC

atsaloli wrote: post #442

I was born in Soviet Russia, where the party line was: there is no God, there is no Soul, there is no Truth, and truth is what we tell the people. My family came to America to get away from that savage society and to live in a free country, based on voluntary cooperation (free market) not force and violence and coercion. In communism, the group is all and the individual is nothing. I do not believe it is okay to viol…

Vaccine mandates are already ubiquitous across the Western world (and the non-Western world). In most cases, it is infants and children having a "medical procedure" forced on them. Your point still stands, but in reality an overwhelming consensus exists that vaccines are an acceptable exemption to bodily autonomy.

EDIT: I didn't make an argument, I only stated uncontroversial facts. Would love an explanation of downvotes.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#495

Post by rrrrrrrrrrrryan » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:36 PM UTC

whiddershins wrote: post #455

timdaub wrote: post #369

I find it ironic that there are plenty comments that paint the picture of how mandatory vaccinations divide the country. Hello? Have you been awake for the last month? How much more divided can a country already be when the absolute democratic majority has made their decision months ago to take the shot but 30% are holding everyone back. Anyone in my family or from my friends that has taken one for the team (and got…

One of the most salient thing about rights is that the majority isn't permitted take them away whenever it suits them.

Access to healthcare is considered a right in Germany.

They're mandating vaccines so that they can continue to provide all their citizens with this human right.

Sometimes rights clash, which is why you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater despite having the right to freedom of speech.

An individual's right to do X on principle can absolutely be overruled by the right for a larger group of people to continue living on this earth.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#496

Post by native_samples » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:36 PM UTC

Pyramus wrote: post #457

worik wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that everybody should get vaccinated. Let's make this virus extinct. But what you describe is majoritarianism. It is a form of democracy but a very weak form. For a lot of people, who are from minority groups, it is indistinguishable from totalitarianism. Why do 30% of people refuse to get vaccinated? (here in Aotearoa it is 5%). Something is happening, people are getting left behind, in vast numbers. Forcing…

> Why do 30% of people refuse to get vaccinated? (here in Aotearoa it is 5%). Something is happening, people are getting left behind, in vast numbers. It's an interesting question and there is lots of debate in Germany at the moment as to why. Some factors are: * Germany did very well during the pandemic so people didn't experience a Bergamo or Madrid moment * Germany has a strong esoteric / anthroposophical movement…

None of those are the right answer. These are the answers people come up with having never talked to anyone who disagrees.

The right answers are:

1. They don't trust the medical authorities to be honest about the risks.

2. They don't feel a need for it because they're at low risk of COVID and know it.

3. They don't believe it will change anything.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#497

Post by omegaworks » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:36 PM UTC

gojomo wrote: post #484

worik wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that everybody should get vaccinated. Let's make this virus extinct. But what you describe is majoritarianism. It is a form of democracy but a very weak form. For a lot of people, who are from minority groups, it is indistinguishable from totalitarianism. Why do 30% of people refuse to get vaccinated? (here in Aotearoa it is 5%). Something is happening, people are getting left behind, in vast numbers. Forcing…

Vaccinations are too leaky to "make this virus extinct". Within a few months of vaccination, half or more of people can get mild, but still transmissable, cases of Delta. (Omicron is likely worse; there are already multiple reports of mild cases among those with recent 3rd booster shots.) Honest epidemiologists have been warning about this risk since 2020, and more forcefully when confirmed by early vax results in 20…

>Most of them have probably had COVID already, or soon will, giving them an immunity just as good as vaccination.

Immunity from prior-infection was worse than vaccination at protecting people from Delta.[1]

1. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-br...

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#498

Post by furgooswft13 » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:36 PM UTC

novaRom wrote: post #379

elorant wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No democratic country is built to handle something like a pandemic. That much became clear the last two years. You need to be able to mandate strict laws that take away a lot of liberties that we have learn to consider as standard.

Many countries do currently mandate strict laws that take away a lot of liberties. Australia, Canada, Europe, parts of US. Are they still democracies?

North Korea also claims to be a democracy.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#499

Post by vax1nat0r » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:36 PM UTC

Just keep in mind that these shots cause heart attacks[0] and nervous system damage[1] for a non-trivial amount of people.

So if you are ok with casually murdering a few hundred thousand or million people - murder away.

[0] https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/circ.144.suppl_1.107...

[1] https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/over-42000-adverse-reacti...

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#500

Post by zizee » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:36 PM UTC

black_puppydog wrote: post #435

timdaub wrote: post #369

I find it ironic that there are plenty comments that paint the picture of how mandatory vaccinations divide the country. Hello? Have you been awake for the last month? How much more divided can a country already be when the absolute democratic majority has made their decision months ago to take the shot but 30% are holding everyone back. Anyone in my family or from my friends that has taken one for the team (and got…

I think it's worth to point out here that since "it's in everyone's best interest to get vaccinated" you can't really call it taking "one for the team". People getting vaccinated are taking "one for the team" and at the same time "looking out for number one". That's the beauty of it, really: aligned incentives.

Perhaps this is true for covid19, as the vaccines do not seem to stop the vaccinated from getting infected and spreading the virus. But for vaccines that actually stop the majority of vaccinated from becoming infectious the risk reward calculation changes.

All vaccinations have some level of risk. If you are surrounded by unvaccinated, your risk of not getting the vaccine outweighs the risk of catching the disease from the herd. In this instance you have aligned incentives.

However, if you are in a entirely vaccinated population, your risk profile changes, and it is now possible for your incentives to become unaligned with "the team", or at least more blurry.

Unfortunately the average antivaxer's mental model is probably not so well defined that they realise is what they have been doing. I would not be surprised if the majority of them don't realise/agree that they've been selfishly coasting on the coat-tails of the crowd with other vaccines/diseases, and therefore they have trouble realising their currently "successful" strategy is not going to work so well this time round.