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Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

cnn.com

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Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#481

Post by jermaustin1 »

prohobo wrote: post #398
worik wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that everybody should get vaccinated. Let's make this virus extinct. But what you describe is majoritarianism. It is a form of democracy but a very weak form. For a lot of people, who are from minority groups, it is indistinguishable from totalitarianism. Why do 30% of people refuse to get vaccinated? (here in Aotearoa it is 5%). Something is happening, people are getting left behind, in vast numbers. Forcing…

You cannot make this virus extinct . These vaccines do not accomplish this goal, the end.

Yes the vaccine doesn't kill it, but what would kill it is a REAL lock down.

Give everyone 2 months of salary, and 2 months of food. Nationalize food production for a month, give everyone shelf stable terrible food, the same crap that the majority of the anti-vaxxers have been hoarding for decades.

Its like a pretend apocalypse. They should LOVE it.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#482

Post by glfharris »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #475
timdaub wrote: post #369

I find it ironic that there are plenty comments that paint the picture of how mandatory vaccinations divide the country. Hello? Have you been awake for the last month? How much more divided can a country already be when the absolute democratic majority has made their decision months ago to take the shot but 30% are holding everyone back. Anyone in my family or from my friends that has taken one for the team (and got…

> ... but 30% are holding everyone back. Not at all and I can turn that argument back: I know non-vaccinated people who stay at home and "evil" fully vaccinated people who go out. It is a fact that vaccinated people can still carry and transmit the virus. It is also a fact that in the EU 40 to 60% of all ICU beds are filled with fully vaccinated people (40% in Spain atm but the number is going up, 50% in Belgium, 60%…

There are more vaccinated people than not, and people with prior health conditions are more likely to be vaccinated so it's not surprising they would be represented in the ITU population.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#483

Post by cblconfederate »

marton78 wrote: post #126
crooked-v wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With exponential spread, the actual number of ICU beds really doesn't matter, because whatever you've got will be overwhelmed across a similar timeframe anyway. The only way to actually fix the problem is to get the R-value below 1, which requires mass vaccinations.

The spectre of exponential spread is summoned way too often. Yes, an epidemic spreads exponentially when it starts, but also it's self limiting after a while. The 4th wave is wearing of already. Every wave so far has worn off in every country, with our without measures. As a recent example, compare Latvia and Estonia in the past few months. The former imposed strict measures, while the latter didn't, and yet the two…

self-limiting by death?

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#484

Post by gojomo »

worik wrote: post #388
timdaub wrote: post #369

I find it ironic that there are plenty comments that paint the picture of how mandatory vaccinations divide the country. Hello? Have you been awake for the last month? How much more divided can a country already be when the absolute democratic majority has made their decision months ago to take the shot but 30% are holding everyone back. Anyone in my family or from my friends that has taken one for the team (and got…

I agree that everybody should get vaccinated. Let's make this virus extinct. But what you describe is majoritarianism. It is a form of democracy but a very weak form. For a lot of people, who are from minority groups, it is indistinguishable from totalitarianism. Why do 30% of people refuse to get vaccinated? (here in Aotearoa it is 5%). Something is happening, people are getting left behind, in vast numbers. Forcing…

Vaccinations are too leaky to "make this virus extinct". Within a few months of vaccination, half or more of people can get mild, but still transmissable, cases of Delta. (Omicron is likely worse; there are already multiple reports of mild cases among those with recent 3rd booster shots.)

Honest epidemiologists have been warning about this risk since 2020, and more forcefully when confirmed by early vax results in 2021. But many people are still on the warpath against the unvaxed, as if that can make a difference.

Well, it can for the unvaxed themselves – winning them a less-severe case.

But every vaxed person is going to be exposed to, and have mild cases of, COVID – via waning immunity & multiplying variants. There is no net increase in protection from harassing the last ~15% (a more honest count of hardcore holdouts) into a vax they don't want. (Most of them have probably had COVID already, or soon will, giving them an immunity just as good as vaccination.)

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#485

Post by forgotmyoldname »

timdaub wrote: post #369

I find it ironic that there are plenty comments that paint the picture of how mandatory vaccinations divide the country. Hello? Have you been awake for the last month? How much more divided can a country already be when the absolute democratic majority has made their decision months ago to take the shot but 30% are holding everyone back. Anyone in my family or from my friends that has taken one for the team (and got…

Last weekend I was at a Japanese history museum, and part of the exhibit was on 1600s-1800s medical technology.

In the 1870s, Japan had vaccine passports and kept logs of unvaccinated people in order to track them down. It was deemed a huge step forward in developing the country.

It’s interesting how some people today think mandatory vaccination is some massive, unprecedented destruction of freedom, when it’s historically nothing new and something that was essential to helping your country stay strong.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#486

Post by oezi »

fileeditview wrote: post #71
nzk wrote: post #47

What we're seeing here is one of the wealthiest countries in the world with a population of > 80M people crumbling over a few thousand ICU patients because of long-standing issues that were never addressed. The staffing problems in hospitals (and nursing homes) have existed much longer than Covid. I heard a lot about them myself when I did my FSJ (volunteer work) back in 2004, and it's only gotten worse since then. O…

So true and not mentioned enough by the media. The fact that we lost more than 4000 ICU beds over last year (during the Corona pandemic!!) because of personnel shortage is mind-boggling. Instead of rewarding those who worked these horrible jobs and maybe attract new workers with better conditions (e.g. more holidays), better pay or tax reduction, our politicians did campaigning and ignored the upcoming winter. Now th…

It is mentioned enough by the media. Thank you.

But it seems strange to realize that people don't want to do a job where you have to watch people die like flies over the course of two to three weeks. No money in the world makes that acceptable for many.

With the availability of the vaccines (at least in the developed world) this has become a pandemic of the uninformed know-it-alls ("Querdenker" = Crooked thinker, as they are call here). If you work on an ICU to rescue people that tell you that this is all a scam by the Pharma-Industrial Complex, you would want to quit.

It is not the media's fault where we are now, nor are the politicians (entirely) to blame. At least half the blame should be frankly put on social media disinformation and the usual tabloid press (Springer/Bild) that fabricate Fox-News style lies.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#487

Post by detaro »

monksy wrote: post #421

Just a heads up about what is happening in Germany: (Just got back Monday from Hamburg) 1. Entry restriction: You must be vaccinated to enter from nonEU countries (Vaccation must be in the approved list) 2. Most restaraunt/bars/outdoor gatherings are either 2G/3G. The bahn is 3g (so testing as well). Nearly everything else is 2G. This includes the food hall in the airport. Enforcement is at entry. You must show your…

Just to clarify on the 2G / 3G labels, since I don't think it's 100% clear in your comment:

2G is recovered (PCR-validated infection in past 6 months) or vaccinated

3G is that or (quick-)tested

2G+ is 2G and tested (exception: I've once earlier seen it used for 2G or PCR-tested)

Quick-tests at test centers (which are all over the place) were free for residents for a long time, then that got removed (IMHO a mistake), then made free again.

Actual proper checking of requirements was pretty terrible for a long time, from what I hear that's gotten a bit better.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#488

Post by WinstonSmith84 »

nzk wrote: post #47

What we're seeing here is one of the wealthiest countries in the world with a population of > 80M people crumbling over a few thousand ICU patients because of long-standing issues that were never addressed. The staffing problems in hospitals (and nursing homes) have existed much longer than Covid. I heard a lot about them myself when I did my FSJ (volunteer work) back in 2004, and it's only gotten worse since then. O…

this!! It's unbelievable that these wealthy western countries find "cheaper" to stop their economy than to build few more hospitals, beds and employ / pay more these guys running this. It's hundreds, maybe thousands, of billions wasted in Germany alone, versus. no idea but definitely not hundreds of billions to increase the ICU capacity to keep the economy open no matter what.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#489

Post by jseban »

novaRom wrote: post #379
elorant wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No democratic country is built to handle something like a pandemic. That much became clear the last two years. You need to be able to mandate strict laws that take away a lot of liberties that we have learn to consider as standard.

Many countries do currently mandate strict laws that take away a lot of liberties. Australia, Canada, Europe, parts of US. Are they still democracies?

No they are not. If you can declare a state emergency in the name of public health without quantifying it in any way, and bypassing any forms of debates or elections or votes (one expert said something), that's for sure not a democracy.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#490

Post by johnteller »

I'd be more open to getting vaccinated when I see people actively making use of hand sanitizers in stores. When people learn to cover their whole faces with their masks. When they learn to keep distance. Vaccinated people who are old, sick or born with bad luck in the genetic lottery are still at risk. Vaccination doesn't mean people can go back to doing whatever they want. The vaccination itself can be a risk to certain individuals too. It's ludicrous to expect everyone to get the shot for the rest of their lives and call that situation a success because "at least everyone is vaccinated".

If you want to force vaccination, start with the people that have a history of covid infection. Why piss the people off that have been actively avoiding to come into contact with the virus and carrying it around?

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