Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#411

Post by endymi0n » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:06 PM UTC

zoe4883 wrote: post #377

throwaway47292 wrote: post #335

I am double vaccinated, pro vax, would get booster if I can, but if this happens in my country I will join the riots. I dont have solution, but if people dont want to get vaccinated they shouldn't be forced, period. I am afraid this pressure will create people that are against all vaccines, and when we get like 20% of new parents not vaccinating their new lockdown babies (which are a lot, everyone i know who can be p…

I had covid, but have no certificate with PCR test. I had positive home self test. I did not want to ride bus and visit hospital, with 38 degree fever, to get official PCR test. Instead I just self isolated for 2 weeks like an idiot. They will now force me to take a shot. I have to risk severe alergic reaction. I am also vaccinated, but Jansen does not count anymore.

Sorry to hear that, but you may overestimate your own risk: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34463744/

At this point, we're talking about the most-tested vaccine in all of the world. Even if your chance of dying is increased by 5x, that's equivalent to about 10 hours of driving a car at average Autobahn speeds.

If you're prepared to take that kind of risk every year, I'd invite you to just go do it.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#412

Post by artdigital » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:06 PM UTC

CountDrewku wrote: post #296

serial_dev wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what to say without being labeled an anti vaxxer... I was very sick for a week after each shot. I'm 30, I work from home, I work out, I'm lean and only go out when running in the forest and buy food. I can't possibly know what would happen if I caught covid, but I wish the vaccination (I'm already vaxxed, but I mean the boosters) was my choice. With my reaction to the vaccines, it's two weeks a year guarante…

Yes I had a horrible reaction to the 2nd dose. So did everyone I know. Yes it's possible the real thing might be worse for me but I'm going to take my chances. I will not be taking a booster. I'm healthy, exercise regularly and I'm not in the age group that's high-risk. There are studies showing the vaccine isn't even effective at 3 months. There's no way I'm dealing with that shot every 3-6 months.

This is the same argument my Germany friends made (and used to get fake vaccination certificates). The studies say it’s not effective after 3 months!! People that are vaccinated get infected again!! I’m young and healthy!!

Yes people get reinfected but how many die from it or run into serious conditions? Vaccines don’t block the virus from entering your body, but they help with you not dying or using up ICU beds, even after those 3 months.

Please do your part of the swarm and get vaccinated. If you know you’ll have a odd reaction you can prepare in advance. Also Germany has sick-leave from work everywhere.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#413

Post by labster » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:08 PM UTC

spookthesunset wrote: post #397

somewhereoutth wrote: post #354

Realistically: 1) Mandatory vaccination, all age groups, boosters etc. AND 2) permanently reconfiguring our society to reduce social contacts such that with the vaccines, COVID is suppressed. If the vaccines work well, then small (maybe no) changes will be needed. If they don't, then large changes. WFH, no indoor hospitality etc. We can cycle through lockdowns, we can wring our hands about vaccinating children, we ca…

So uh, maybe we decide that life doesn’t need to be permanently centered around Covid and just move on? And realistically that is what society will do. Move on. There are infinitely more problems in the world than just Covid. Solving for exactly Covid to the exclusion of literally everything else is complete madness. Any rational person will tell you that. Life is to short to maintain a Covid centric lifestyle… life…

> Oh yeah, and we’ve been wringing our hands about hospital capacity for 2 years now. Perhaps we should ask why there isn’t any effort at all into increasing it?

Yeah seriously, it’s been two years, why haven’t we doubled the number of doctors and nurses by now? Just add more conveyor belts to our factorio.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#414

Post by hunterb123 » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:08 PM UTC

wolverine876 wrote: post #351

cheeseomlit wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Your freedom ends where your fist ends and my nose begins. The governments freedom ends where my epidermis begins.

Your government can imprison you, it can do body cavity searches, it can force medical procedures on you, all depending on the circumstances.

You can lose rights after due process, nothing to do with this scenario.

The due process is the important part, you must be convicted by a jury of your peers.

Forced mandates are not due process.

Your lack of understanding of how your rights work is troubling.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#415

Post by endymi0n » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:08 PM UTC

tibu wrote: post #394

endymi0n wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> e.g. send families 1 test per week so they can stop the spread quicker. I'm afraid you're missing reality, our kids are getting tested 3 times per week already and still we're in quarantine right now for the second week because an unvaccinated child care assistant has infected half the place and now it's going everywhere. There is no dialogue or discussion going on anymore. We have two factions in this country by n…

As far as I know vaccinated people (like myself) can also spread the virus, the vaccination helps only your immune system to combat the disease. So don't blame the unvaccinated for this. But I'm with you in the medical care part, vaccinated people should get priority. But they won't...

By your logic, we should get rid of goalkeepers as well, since all goals in football happen despite them being on the playground.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#416

Post by zoe4883 » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:08 PM UTC

endymi0n wrote: post #407

endymi0n wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> e.g. send families 1 test per week so they can stop the spread quicker. I'm afraid you're missing reality, our kids are getting tested 3 times per week already and still we're in quarantine right now for the second week because an unvaccinated child care assistant has infected half the place and now it's going everywhere. There is no dialogue or discussion going on anymore. We have two factions in this country by n…

Oh, and because some people told me that would be "unethical" (and how to prioritize against smokers and motorbikers): It's really not, at least not any less unethical than not getting vaccinated. These people aren't just fully prepared to still take the risk of dying by Covid up to this day, they also statistically kill 0.01 other people by getting infected. We put people who kill other people in jail here, and incr…

Even Fauci said vaccinated people spread covid at the same rate for first few days.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#417

Post by 13415 » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:08 PM UTC

2-718-281-828 wrote: post #275

crooked-v wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With exponential spread, the actual number of ICU beds really doesn't matter, because whatever you've got will be overwhelmed across a similar timeframe anyway. The only way to actually fix the problem is to get the R-value below 1, which requires mass vaccinations.

not true - infection rate grows sigmoidal and not exponential. that's why at the moment you can observe a stabilization despite few changes in regulation as of now compared to the summer. infection spread saturates periodically after suceptible clusters are depleted. what would make sense is a steady and controlled Durchseuchung with specific protection of vulnerable people (like old and sick) - b/c the best immunity…

That's a bit misleading. As long as the R value is above 1 the spreading is exponential. That follows directly from how the R-value is defined. What you mean is that the curve will take a sigmoidal shape for a while once the number of immune people has reached a certain threshold. In that case, the R-value is slowly approaching 1 again, and finally will go below 1 (which finally results in a curve that is not sigmoidal, of course). Other measures like lockdowns do the same to the curve, as is easy to observe by overlaying the measures over the curve, just not with an initial increase of cases that leads to hundreds of thousands of deaths. Estimated Infection Fatality Rates during the first Covid wave - where there was full hospital care available - ranged from 0.5% to 2%. So for Germany's 80M people that would be in the ballpark of 400,000 to 1.6M deaths - under medical care. Even if you take the original estimates of around 0.3% the results wouldn't have been flattering.

In a nutshell, the German government and every other country on earth is doing what you propose, except that they are vaccinating at the same time and try to keep the curves flat (but your use of "slow" also suggests this, so it's not clear what else you're suggesting).

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#418

Post by prohobo » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:08 PM UTC

datameta wrote: post #408

spookthesunset wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So uh, maybe we decide that life doesn’t need to be permanently centered around Covid and just move on? And realistically that is what society will do. Move on. There are infinitely more problems in the world than just Covid. Solving for exactly Covid to the exclusion of literally everything else is complete madness. Any rational person will tell you that. Life is to short to maintain a Covid centric lifestyle… life…

Spoken like an able-bodied individual of young(er) age and/or someone with zero co-morbidities. Fuck the rest, eh?

He said what most poor people have been saying the entire time. They're willing to take the risk, because the risk is lower than all the other problems they have now.

Now, the question is: should you care what poor people say?

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#419

Post by Zanfa » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:08 PM UTC

marton78 wrote: post #126

crooked-v wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With exponential spread, the actual number of ICU beds really doesn't matter, because whatever you've got will be overwhelmed across a similar timeframe anyway. The only way to actually fix the problem is to get the R-value below 1, which requires mass vaccinations.

The spectre of exponential spread is summoned way too often. Yes, an epidemic spreads exponentially when it starts, but also it's self limiting after a while. The 4th wave is wearing of already. Every wave so far has worn off in every country, with our without measures. As a recent example, compare Latvia and Estonia in the past few months. The former imposed strict measures, while the latter didn't, and yet the two…

Estonia re-imposed strict measures as well because the ICU was becoming overwhelmed. This means mandatory masks everywhere, no public activities without proof of vaccination (restaurants, gyms etc) and limits on opening hours and strong police enforcement of these rules.

The wave started leveling off about 2 weeks after and the rules are still in force.

Not sure where you got your information.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#420

Post by Swenrekcah » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 10:09 PM UTC

prohobo wrote: post #398

worik wrote: post #388

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that everybody should get vaccinated. Let's make this virus extinct. But what you describe is majoritarianism. It is a form of democracy but a very weak form. For a lot of people, who are from minority groups, it is indistinguishable from totalitarianism. Why do 30% of people refuse to get vaccinated? (here in Aotearoa it is 5%). Something is happening, people are getting left behind, in vast numbers. Forcing…

You cannot make this virus extinct . These vaccines do not accomplish this goal, the end.

The goal is to keep serious cases to a minimum so they don’t clog the healthcare system thus making people die of all sorts of other things because they couldn’t be treated.

Vaccines do help with that, tremendously.