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Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

cnn.com

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Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#301

Post by tomohawk »

GVIrish wrote: post #244
lbj wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"open everything up despite it being relatively clear it was way too early" It probably wasn't. There have been 2 major studies on the effects of covid-lockdown measures, they show a small increase in total mortality. So we should have done as the Swedes and kept everything open from beginning to end.

Sweden did worse than the other Scandinavian countries that enacted stricter Covid restrictions, including lockdowns. Sweden had roughly 5-7x as many deaths per capita as its immediate neighbors of Norway and Finland. Germany had less deaths per capita as well: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

What is this obsession with limiting comparison of Sweden with "other scandanavian countries"? Is there some sort of special risk factor that only applies to scandanavia? Does COVID know what people look like? Why not compare stats of major metro areas with other similar metro areas in the world?

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#302

Post by howinteresting »

spookthesunset wrote: post #164
howinteresting wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mortality isn't the only negative outcome.

What about all the negative outcomes from continuing all the restrictions?

I think mask mandates and ratcheting up the pressure to get vaccinated is a far better use of the "restriction budget" than full lockdowns on the entire population, yes. Lockdowns on people who aren't yet vaccinated by choice seem pretty great to me.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#303

Post by xg15 »

lbj wrote: post #153
locallost wrote: post #127

As a foreigner living in Germany I could live with it if there were otherwise sound measures, but it's mostly been a bunch of wishful thinking. There was a rush last summer to open everything up despite it being relatively clear it was way too early and a lot of people really understood it as "corona is over". Even this I could understand, but this year they do the same thing again! Surprise, surprise that there is a…

"open everything up despite it being relatively clear it was way too early" It probably wasn't. There have been 2 major studies on the effects of covid-lockdown measures, they show a small increase in total mortality. So we should have done as the Swedes and kept everything open from beginning to end.

What exactly do those studies compare? How countries without lockdown coped in the same wave?

Lockdowns were called because hospitals were at capacity and immediate risk of failing to keep up service - as is currently again the case e.g in Germany.

Remember, the first lockdowns in Europe were mandated after hospitals in Italy were forced to conduct triage. (The "who do I have to let die" kind of triage)

Why did that not happen in whatever control groups the studies were looking at?

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#304

Post by onlyrealcuzzo »

GVIrish wrote: post #244
lbj wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"open everything up despite it being relatively clear it was way too early" It probably wasn't. There have been 2 major studies on the effects of covid-lockdown measures, they show a small increase in total mortality. So we should have done as the Swedes and kept everything open from beginning to end.

Sweden did worse than the other Scandinavian countries that enacted stricter Covid restrictions, including lockdowns. Sweden had roughly 5-7x as many deaths per capita as its immediate neighbors of Norway and Finland. Germany had less deaths per capita as well: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

A lot of that can be attributed to a relatively huge early spike in deaths at nursing homes.

Rightly, Sweden decided it was a bad idea to do go about business as usual at nursing homes. After this, their relative difference to other Scandinavian countries is much smaller.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#305

Post by furgooswft13 »

ryandrake wrote: post #150
shoto_io wrote: post #7

As a double vaccinated German, I am very disappointed and angry about this move. Our politicians have failed to prepare the country for the Winter (who could have known...). We lack a basic strategy how to cope with Covid. And now they try to fix this by dividing the country in two. This will have no effect whatsoever on the infections, it will just continue to drive a divide that is already existing and will make an…

> And now they try to fix this by dividing the country in two. This will have no effect whatsoever on the infections, it will just continue to drive a divide that is already existing and will make anti-vaxxers even more convinced that this is a big conspiracy. You could say this about any law that enforces some uncomfortable behavior change. Anyone who remembers when seat belt laws became real, sees history repeating…

You can take the seat belt off when the car ride is over. Also if you are caught without one you get a small fine, but you don't lose your job and the ability to participate in society.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#306

Post by lambdaba »

throwaway47292 wrote: post #251
rwaxm wrote: post #217

'"We have understood that the situation is very serious and that we want to take further measures in addition to those already taken," Merkel told reporters at Thursday's news conference. "The fourth wave must be broken and this has not yet been achieved," she added.' You do not need special measures. Florida and Sweden didn't have any and have the best graphs right now. Outbreaks stop by themselves. Of course, if yo…

in the netherlands they just implemented measures to shut down non essential things at 5pm.. that lead to gyms/restaurants/swimming pools PACKED with people.. half the space, twice the density. in the very same day they implemented the measures the cases stopped growing.. the fact that a scientist can recommend "lets shut down gyms at 5pm" instead of "lets make gyms 24/7" makes me distrust the whole corona committee…

It was myopic cargo-culting since day one. I used to think that over the years I'd gotten smarter and subtler from my initial libertarian leanings, but this has opened up my eyes on how bad authorities can mess up, and more worryingly convince their people they're doing the right thing.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#307

Post by jseban »

boringg wrote: post #192
howinteresting wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mortality isn't the only negative outcome.

You should add Mortality + mortality in the following year. Studies coming out that people who survived severe covid had over twice the risk of dying within the next year.

Yeah because people who get severe covid are immune compromised, and that means they get are at high risk for severe illness/death from any infection, not just covid. And remember that most people who "die from covid" are old and frail and more or less at end of life. Median age for covid deaths in germany is 85.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#308

Post by fsh »

lbj wrote: post #75

In Denmark we have now reached 90% vaccination rate. We have more infected, the same number of admissions in hospital and a 15% higher death rate than all of 2020. I really fail to see why we are blaming the unvaccinated and not Pfizer/Moderna.

None of this is true. The vaccination rate in Denmark is 77%, not 90% [1]. The number of hospital admissions and the death rate are lower than during the first and second waves [2, 3] despite a significantly larger infection rate [4].

[1] https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-people-fully-vaccin...

[2] https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explor...

[3] https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explor...

[4] https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explor...

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#309

Post by jpttsn »

discreteevent wrote: post #267
krater23 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You forget one, the people that are dying have taken the risk for ther own and didn't want to get vaccinated. It's ok when they die, it's their decision that's gone wrong. Other people didn't got vaccinated and will never get covid anywhere. This is a decision that not the government has to make for the people.

Those people don't refuse to go to hospital and they don't refuse the ICU bed.

Would you support a comprehensive healthcare opt-out, where an unvaccinated person would forego right to treatment, and also not have to pay taxes for public healthcare?

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#310

Post by mijamo »

tomohawk wrote: post #301
GVIrish wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden did worse than the other Scandinavian countries that enacted stricter Covid restrictions, including lockdowns. Sweden had roughly 5-7x as many deaths per capita as its immediate neighbors of Norway and Finland. Germany had less deaths per capita as well: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

What is this obsession with limiting comparison of Sweden with "other scandanavian countries"? Is there some sort of special risk factor that only applies to scandanavia? Does COVID know what people look like? Why not compare stats of major metro areas with other similar metro areas in the world?

Because the density of the metro areas are similar. Stockholm is not comparable to Paris or London when it comes to density for instance.

Culture is also very similar between Scandinavian countries and much different from western Europe, with people much more isolated (which is tough to adjust to for immigrants there actually).

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