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Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

cnn.com

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Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#191

Post by marcusverus »

berkes wrote: post #101
lbj wrote: post #75

In Denmark we have now reached 90% vaccination rate. We have more infected, the same number of admissions in hospital and a 15% higher death rate than all of 2020. I really fail to see why we are blaming the unvaccinated and not Pfizer/Moderna.

10% of 5,821,297 is still 58,212 people who potentially get ill (and can die and can get into hospital). I'm not sure where you get the 15% higher death rate: any sources? In .nl we are seeing the same numbers (but on a 3x population of denmarks). Hospitals are so full now, they are rejecting e.g. cancer-patients and other "plannable Intensive Care patients". Over half of the patients on those ICs are vaccinated; erg…

I think he's confused about the data. Based on the Google data (from the graph that's visible when searching "COVID Denmark"), there are more Danish cases now than at the previous 2020 peak (3500/day then vs 4300 now), BUT hospitalizations (920/day then vs 430 now) and deaths (32/day then vs. 11 now) are down significantly.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#192

Post by boringg »

howinteresting wrote: post #157
lbj wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"open everything up despite it being relatively clear it was way too early" It probably wasn't. There have been 2 major studies on the effects of covid-lockdown measures, they show a small increase in total mortality. So we should have done as the Swedes and kept everything open from beginning to end.

Mortality isn't the only negative outcome.

You should add Mortality + mortality in the following year. Studies coming out that people who survived severe covid had over twice the risk of dying within the next year.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#193

Post by givemeethekeys »

blub wrote: post #90

Very thought-provoking this mistreatment of the unvaccinated. The process started with demonizing them to the point of being singled out and blamed for how the disease is impacting society. When the discrimination started, there were very few willing to speak for them. Particularly malicious was the expansion of the term anti-vaxxer typically used for a fringe minority which “rejects all vaccines for everyone” to all…

Train left the station as soon as orders were placed for massive amounts of vaccine well before it was ever developed.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#194

Post by mandmandam »

arrrg wrote: post #128
nzk wrote: post #47

What we're seeing here is one of the wealthiest countries in the world with a population of > 80M people crumbling over a few thousand ICU patients because of long-standing issues that were never addressed. The staffing problems in hospitals (and nursing homes) have existed much longer than Covid. I heard a lot about them myself when I did my FSJ (volunteer work) back in 2004, and it's only gotten worse since then. O…

No country in the world has the capacity to take care of more than “a couple thousand” ICU patients (well, it’s more like a couple of ten thousand ICU patients for the best equipped and richest large countries in the world, like Germany). Simply because “a couple thousand” is all that’s needed during ordinary times. Yeah, there are issues with staffing and inadequate payment of the staff, sure, and those problems are…

> Unvaccinated people are to blame for this

This satirical article from Ireland is probably applicable in every Western country that has had its health system systematically hollowed out by cynical neoliberal fuckheads: https://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2021/11/19/unvaccinated-be...

> Increasing ICU capacity right now is not a solution. It's completely misguided

What you fail to understand is that the people who cut those bed numbers across Europe are responsible for far more death than a small percent of mRNA vaccine hesitant people. And they're fucking delighted that so many people are so misdirected.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#195

Post by microtherion »

makomk wrote: post #130
_moof wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might be working from old info here but my understanding is that vaccination reduces the ICU burden. Assuming that's still good info, is it totally unreasonable to blame the unvaccinated for ICU overload?

Vaccination does reduce the proportion of people that need ICU beds, but there are pretty rapid diminishing returns on just vaccinating more; countries have reached the point where the majority of Covid patients in their ICUs are vaccinated at well below 100% vaccination. Also, vaccinating younger lower-risk people doesn't help because they're at substantially lower risk of needing the ICU even unvaccinated than some…

> countries have reached the point where the majority of Covid patients in their ICUs are vaccinated at well below 100% vaccination

Which countries? I find it hard to get data at vaccination prevalence in ICU population specifically, but in Switzerland, the figures I see cited is 60-70% of patients unvaccinated (With 90% of 80%+ year olds in the population being double vaccinated).

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#196

Post by [deleted] »

user-the-name wrote: post #169
lbj wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"open everything up despite it being relatively clear it was way too early" It probably wasn't. There have been 2 major studies on the effects of covid-lockdown measures, they show a small increase in total mortality. So we should have done as the Swedes and kept everything open from beginning to end.

Sweden had mortality rates nearly 10x those of their neighbours.

[deleted]

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#197

Post by krater23 »

crooked-v wrote: post #115
fileeditview wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So true and not mentioned enough by the media. The fact that we lost more than 4000 ICU beds over last year (during the Corona pandemic!!) because of personnel shortage is mind-boggling. Instead of rewarding those who worked these horrible jobs and maybe attract new workers with better conditions (e.g. more holidays), better pay or tax reduction, our politicians did campaigning and ignored the upcoming winter. Now th…

With exponential spread, the actual number of ICU beds really doesn't matter, because whatever you've got will be overwhelmed across a similar timeframe anyway. The only way to actually fix the problem is to get the R-value below 1, which requires mass vaccinations.

Not the only way. What is with the north korean way? Just shot anyone that has covid?

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#198

Post by FiberBundle »

_Microft wrote: post #181
FiberBundle wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another factor is that the German government tried to keep infection rates low at all times, leading to very little natural immunity in the population compared to other countries.

We have 57 million fully vaccinated [0] people and 6 million infected/recovered [1] out of 83 million inhabitants. The recovered even have to get a shot later to keep their status as recovered/vaccinated (which exempts from the restrictions that are imposed now), so they might even be considered as a subset of the vaccinated group. More infections therefore would not have increased the total number of immune people b…

I disagree, over the summer they aimed for low infection rates, explicitly coupling openings to certain infection rate thresholds, knowing full well at that time that the virus was going to be endemic and without any good reason at all believing that sufficiently many people would be vaccinated in order to contain the pandemic in the winter. Other countries such as France or the Britain simply didn't care about high infection rates over the summer and face a smaller wave this winter.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#199

Post by commandlinefan »

jjoonathan wrote: post #141
caeril wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bet on the order of 71% of Germans supported mandatory discrimination against undesirables in 1940 too, but here we are yet again, claiming that what a majority of the population supports is indicative of moral correctness. If these measures don't work, like literally every authoritarian measure undertaken by governments so far, maybe Germany can put all the un-vaccinated into camps, too. We need to keep the unpure…

It's really hard to sympathize with people fighting for the "right" to infect me with a disease.

If you're vaccinated, how can anybody infect you with it?

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#200

Post by Animats »

Understand, we're in the second epidemic and headed for the third. Plans made on the basis of the original virus may not be valid. "The enemy get a vote", as the military says.

The original virus had a R0 rate of about 3, that is, in normal conditions, each infected person infects three others. That's about what the first generation of vaccines could control well enough that eventually the virus would die out.

The delta variant has an R0 of about 8. The current vaccines can slow down the spread, but not stop it. Which is why we've had a second epidemic. By last August, delta variant cases were 90% of the cases seen.

We don't know enough about the omicron variant yet.

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