Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#171

Post by angelzen » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 8:23 PM UTC

crooked-v wrote: post #115

fileeditview wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So true and not mentioned enough by the media. The fact that we lost more than 4000 ICU beds over last year (during the Corona pandemic!!) because of personnel shortage is mind-boggling. Instead of rewarding those who worked these horrible jobs and maybe attract new workers with better conditions (e.g. more holidays), better pay or tax reduction, our politicians did campaigning and ignored the upcoming winter. Now th…

With exponential spread, the actual number of ICU beds really doesn't matter, because whatever you've got will be overwhelmed across a similar timeframe anyway. The only way to actually fix the problem is to get the R-value below 1, which requires mass vaccinations.

As of 12/02/2012, Robert Koch Institute, roughly the German CDC, estimates 7-day R-value at 0.92

https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges_Coronavirus...

Index page: https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges_Coronavirus...

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#172

Post by odiroot » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 8:23 PM UTC

emsy wrote: post #74

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"[...] we totally hollowed out our health care" Weird move for one of the richest countries in the world, no?

Privatization of infrastructure in Germany has always led to a, at least perceived, decline in quality. This has been true for postal service, railway, telcos and now health care.

Health care in Germany is a not-for-profit endeavour and is strictly controlled by the law, with ministry of health oversight.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#173

Post by CountDrewku » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 8:24 PM UTC

jjoonathan wrote: post #141

caeril wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bet on the order of 71% of Germans supported mandatory discrimination against undesirables in 1940 too, but here we are yet again, claiming that what a majority of the population supports is indicative of moral correctness. If these measures don't work, like literally every authoritarian measure undertaken by governments so far, maybe Germany can put all the un-vaccinated into camps, too. We need to keep the unpure…

It's really hard to sympathize with people fighting for the "right" to infect me with a disease.

How are they infecting you if you're vaccinated?

It's really hard to sympathize with people that think it's their right to force something on other people's bodies. This isn't polio.

I'm vaccinated. I stay healthy. I have no fear of un-vaccinated people and neither should you. If you are fearful you've fallen victim to your own anti-science mental health anxiety with a load of media brainwashing on top.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#174

Post by cheeze » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 8:24 PM UTC

_moof wrote: post #131

lbj wrote: post #75

In Denmark we have now reached 90% vaccination rate. We have more infected, the same number of admissions in hospital and a 15% higher death rate than all of 2020. I really fail to see why we are blaming the unvaccinated and not Pfizer/Moderna.

I can't find any data to support your claim of a higher death rate in Denmark than all of 2020. The data I have show: - Denmark currently experiencing a massive new wave of infections - Previous large wave of infections was last winter, with rate peaking on Dec 18 - Daily deaths peaked one month later at about 8 per 1000 daily infections - Current daily deaths, accounting for lag, is also about 8 per 1000 daily infec…

Yeah, but this is HackerNews. The antivax crowd is strong here. Brandolini's law in full effect in this comment.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#175

Post by mandmandam » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 8:24 PM UTC

jjoonathan wrote: post #141

caeril wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bet on the order of 71% of Germans supported mandatory discrimination against undesirables in 1940 too, but here we are yet again, claiming that what a majority of the population supports is indicative of moral correctness. If these measures don't work, like literally every authoritarian measure undertaken by governments so far, maybe Germany can put all the un-vaccinated into camps, too. We need to keep the unpure…

It's really hard to sympathize with people fighting for the "right" to infect me with a disease.

People saying this are being flagged, but the fact remains that COVID vaccines don't stop transmission.

The CDC themselves state that viral load is similar in fully vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals.

And yes, people have the right to refuse medical treament; that's a human right. It's there for very good reasons, and there is broad agreement among civil liberties experts on that point.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#176

Post by crooked-v » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 8:25 PM UTC

gizmo wrote: post #108

fabian2k wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something like 50% of the people in intensive care for COVID still die. Even if we were able to handle the load on the healthcare system, that still would be a very large amount of unnecessary suffering and death. And even though there are some fundamental issues with working conditions and pay in this area, fixing them would not be enough to be able to handle the load that an exponentially growing viral disease coul…

The problem isn’t simple and certainly not a matter of just vaccinating. A big part of the problem is that govt was confident that two jabs in the summer would be sufficient because of two faulty assumptions: that immunity would last and that fully vaccinated people would not spread covid.

Also, more broadly, that people would actually be willing to get vaccinated at a rate high enough to reduce the R-value below 1.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#177

Post by dbkal » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 8:25 PM UTC

Cases in super vaccinated Portugal are also rising. If one is looking for scapegoats, how about locking out Romanian migrant workers, who are everywhere in construction and cleaning inside family's homes? Look how the Romanian outbreaks precede the German ones multiple times:

https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explor...

Also look how fast the Romanian numbers dropped. The same will happen in Germany in some weeks and politicians will take the credit.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#178

Post by vibrato2 » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 8:25 PM UTC

acd wrote: post #144

Its a global pandemic where a small percentage follow antiwax conspiracy. I mean an iduvidual choice might endanger others. Thus its induvidual choice versus the good for the masses.

How does it endanger others when both populations transmit the virus, what may be equally

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#179

Post by hogFeast » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 8:26 PM UTC

howinteresting wrote: post #157

lbj wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"open everything up despite it being relatively clear it was way too early" It probably wasn't. There have been 2 major studies on the effects of covid-lockdown measures, they show a small increase in total mortality. So we should have done as the Swedes and kept everything open from beginning to end.

Mortality isn't the only negative outcome.

And lockdowns can cause mortality too. In England, the waiting list for operations (these are procedures that a doctor has determined are required medically, some are elective but England doesn't do many electives because of cost) is expected to hit 12m in a few years...the total adult population in England is 56m. Ignoring the economic turmoil that they cause, ignoring the social turmoil.

There are no very good choices. But the high cost of lockdowns should dictate that they only be used when the alternative is extremely large numbers of people dying (at least in the UK, this was probably met at some point last year but hasn't been met for the majority of the Covid period).

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#180

Post by president » Thu, Dec 02, 2021, 8:26 PM UTC

After 2 years of Covid, I find it extremely suspect that the covid vaccines are still touted so hard as the only way to manage or exit the pandemic despite it clearly not being the silver bullet it was originally promised to be. The fact that the media and government can't talk about anything other than vaccines tells me people are not really interested in solving for anything other than selling more vaccines.