Weird, Birdlike Mystery Drone Crashes in Pakistan • Hacker News Board

Re: Weird, Birdlike Mystery Drone Crashes in Pakistan

#21

Post by Estragon » Tue, Aug 30, 2011, 2:40 PM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #4

Here's a potentially scary thought for you: in ~2000, this would have been proof positive of state involvement. In 2011, this is barely newsworthy. In 2021, this will be about as within the reach of the average middle class teenager as a three ounce device capable of instantaneous worldwide encrypted communication. This is not going to be a happy adjustment for people who have to maintain physical security of e.g. a…

The really scary thought is that when these are available as consumer items, and can be coupled to visual processing software which can recognize people's ethnicity, the resulting industrialization of ethnic oppression will make the Holocaust look tame.

Re: Weird, Birdlike Mystery Drone Crashes in Pakistan

#22

Post by pavel_lishin » Tue, Aug 30, 2011, 2:45 PM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #20

patio11 wrote: post #4

Here's a potentially scary thought for you: in ~2000, this would have been proof positive of state involvement. In 2011, this is barely newsworthy. In 2021, this will be about as within the reach of the average middle class teenager as a three ounce device capable of instantaneous worldwide encrypted communication. This is not going to be a happy adjustment for people who have to maintain physical security of e.g. a…

Several years ago I thought about writing a short story which included an attack/assassination of an important political figure. The point was to do some brainstorming about ways such an attack could be conducted. After an hour or two, I decided never to write about this subject. The exercise was very eye-opening. The difference between a normal, naked person and a person armed with tech is increasingly dramatically.…

> Nobody is going to want to outlaw RC planes, or wearable cameras, or some sort of AI-augmented robotics.

Never underestimate the power of a well-funded PR campaign spreading FUD. "Could HACKERS be targeting YOUR CHILDREN with ROBOT BIRDS? More at 11."

Re: Weird, Birdlike Mystery Drone Crashes in Pakistan

#23

Post by tuomasb » Tue, Aug 30, 2011, 2:46 PM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #4

Here's a potentially scary thought for you: in ~2000, this would have been proof positive of state involvement. In 2011, this is barely newsworthy. In 2021, this will be about as within the reach of the average middle class teenager as a three ounce device capable of instantaneous worldwide encrypted communication. This is not going to be a happy adjustment for people who have to maintain physical security of e.g. a…

It's already possible for amateurs to use an RC plane/drone without a line of sight, it's called FPV(first person view) piloting. They have a videocamera onboard and transmit the video signal into their VR googles. Then they control their plane with a normal radio controller.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9cSxEqKQ78 (this one made the news recently) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_K0-RvC4cg More recent designs involve head tracking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5OZCWaJBdc Damn that looks cool. Wish I had money to start a new hobby.

Since electrical systems already exist for driving servos and other devices, all you need is a detonator and some explosives to make a lethal and accurate flying bomb that can be remote controlled from a distance.

Re: Weird, Birdlike Mystery Drone Crashes in Pakistan

#24

Post by pavel_lishin » Tue, Aug 30, 2011, 2:48 PM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #17

rdtsc wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am interested in what kind of protection or defence is there against the drones. First is how would one detect them and how would one knock them out. Can one make another drone that patrolls an area looking for these spy drones and then somehow shoots them down. Homes in on them then autodestructs... A radar + a laser? An EMP device that would fry their electronics? Would a small heat seeking missile work? Well the…

You'd need to pick a scalable solution; where we have one drone today, we could have 20 in the same place for half the cost in the future. In my opinion, the best solutions I can think of are: 1) EMP. May not shut off the motors, but should shut off the brains. 2) Base station with targeting system. Laser would be too slow, too dangerous. Maybe a high-powered water jet. Knock them right out of the sky. Break their wi…

I think a laser would scale much better than a water jet. Not to mention, isn't it hard to justify spraying water at every bird that flies by when you're stationed in a desert?

I think in the end, the cheapest thing will be something like a small gun mounted on turnable mount, with a camera attached. If it sees small something flying overhead, it shoots - normal airplanes will be too far up to hit, and if you have a lot of low-flying traffic, you could replace the bullets with rubber. Make certain - by physical means, not software - that the gun can't swivel below a certain angle to avoid shooting basketball players in the head.

Re: Weird, Birdlike Mystery Drone Crashes in Pakistan

#25

Post by DanielBMarkham » Tue, Aug 30, 2011, 3:05 PM UTC

pavel_lishin wrote: post #22

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Several years ago I thought about writing a short story which included an attack/assassination of an important political figure. The point was to do some brainstorming about ways such an attack could be conducted. After an hour or two, I decided never to write about this subject. The exercise was very eye-opening. The difference between a normal, naked person and a person armed with tech is increasingly dramatically.…

> Nobody is going to want to outlaw RC planes, or wearable cameras, or some sort of AI-augmented robotics. Never underestimate the power of a well-funded PR campaign spreading FUD. "Could HACKERS be targeting YOUR CHILDREN with ROBOT BIRDS? More at 11."

No, thinking about it some more, you're correct.

And they'll do it just the same way they're doing the internet: a little nibble at a time. It will be efforts to "Save children" "protect orphans" "help the little guy" "control the evil corporations" and every other overused FUD campaign that's worked so well in the past. They'll just re-purpose it -- and take tiny bites.

If they told us up front how much control they wanted, nobody would ever agree to it. (This is a systemic problem and not related to some hypothetical "they". I anthropomorphise and use hyperbole simply to express how frustrating it all is. The really sad part is that "they" -- who will be different people in different situations -- mean well and only want to help out. I think it would be much easier on everybody if Darth Vader showed up. At least it would be obvious what was going on. Reasoning about systemic problems is not for those with cartoon ideas of good guys and bad guys.)

Re: Weird, Birdlike Mystery Drone Crashes in Pakistan

#26

Post by pavel_lishin » Tue, Aug 30, 2011, 3:24 PM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #25

pavel_lishin wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nobody is going to want to outlaw RC planes, or wearable cameras, or some sort of AI-augmented robotics. Never underestimate the power of a well-funded PR campaign spreading FUD. "Could HACKERS be targeting YOUR CHILDREN with ROBOT BIRDS? More at 11."

No, thinking about it some more, you're correct. And they'll do it just the same way they're doing the internet: a little nibble at a time. It will be efforts to "Save children" "protect orphans" "help the little guy" "control the evil corporations" and every other overused FUD campaign that's worked so well in the past. They'll just re-purpose it -- and take tiny bites. If they told us up front how much control they…

> "help the little guy" "control the evil corporations"

I think the current frame of thinking in America is exactly the opposite.

> I think it would be much easier on everybody if Darth Vader showed up.

I guess Cheney's more of an Emperor figure, though I don't know how many times you can shoot someone in the face before people catch on.

Re: Weird, Birdlike Mystery Drone Crashes in Pakistan

#27

Post by mixmax » Tue, Aug 30, 2011, 3:33 PM UTC

jws wrote: post #13

arethuza wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"They've already clamped down on model rocketry as a hobby" Someone should tell these guys: http://www.copenhagensuborbitals.com/

They do have to leave their country to pursue their hobby. That may be some evidence of clamping. (they probably have to take to the water for safety reasons, but they seem to go amlot further outthan safety demands.)

that's not quite correct.

They're still in Danish territorial waters when they launch. The reason they launch at sea is safety. It's hard to know exactly where the rocket will land, and there just aren't any good places in Denmark where there's a 50 mile radius where you can be certain that nobody will be hit by debris.

The part of the Baltic they launch from is actually a millitary training area that they borrow every year for launches.

Disclaimer: I'm involved with Copenhagen Suborbitals.

Re: Weird, Birdlike Mystery Drone Crashes in Pakistan

#28

Post by DanielBMarkham » Tue, Aug 30, 2011, 3:35 PM UTC

pavel_lishin wrote: post #26

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, thinking about it some more, you're correct. And they'll do it just the same way they're doing the internet: a little nibble at a time. It will be efforts to "Save children" "protect orphans" "help the little guy" "control the evil corporations" and every other overused FUD campaign that's worked so well in the past. They'll just re-purpose it -- and take tiny bites. If they told us up front how much control they…

> "help the little guy" "control the evil corporations" I think the current frame of thinking in America is exactly the opposite. > I think it would be much easier on everybody if Darth Vader showed up. I guess Cheney's more of an Emperor figure, though I don't know how many times you can shoot someone in the face before people catch on.

I would ask you to consider that the nature of this problem is folks picking sides. Once you have picked your side, the restrictions in freedom your side proposes seem okay -- or at least tolerable -- while the other side is always draconian and worthy of disdain, protest, and rebellion.

That's what I mean by systemic. Everybody is ready to jump up and go fight for truth and justice -- as long as what they are really doing is sticking it to the other side. When it's their guys doing the same thing? Suddenly it's bad, but not that bad. Hey, maybe it's bad, but they mean well.

I'll never forget after our current president got elected. A reporter went to talk to some demonstrators outside the White House. These guys were very upset about the killing of civilians, the police state, scanning records, and all of that. But -- guess what? They were all packing up and going home.

The reporter asked "But aren't all these things continuing to happen?"

I'll never forget the guy. He said, "Yes, but we have a new president now, and I think we should give him a chance."

Here's a guy screaming about killing babies one day. The next day, we're still killing babies, but hey, gotta let the new guy get a feel for the job. No fewer people got killed -- he was no closer to the goals he himself identified -- but his protest wasn't worth it any more.

I can't say this enough: it's not one side or the other. Thinking in terms of good guys and bad guys is a critical part of this problem: it's the engine that allows the system itself to continue to ratchet down on freedoms. We have met the enemy, and he is us. A systemic problem is a problem where everybody is acting for a good cause, working as intelligently as they can, and yet the outcome is still poor. Many times a facet or an exacerbator of these problems is the creation of groups of people who blame other groups for being the "real" cause of the problem. [Insert long discussion about evolutionary nature of us-versus-them reasoning and clan formation]

Re: Weird, Birdlike Mystery Drone Crashes in Pakistan

#29

Post by Symmetry » Tue, Aug 30, 2011, 3:54 PM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #14

patio11 wrote: post #4

Here's a potentially scary thought for you: in ~2000, this would have been proof positive of state involvement. In 2011, this is barely newsworthy. In 2021, this will be about as within the reach of the average middle class teenager as a three ounce device capable of instantaneous worldwide encrypted communication. This is not going to be a happy adjustment for people who have to maintain physical security of e.g. a…

I am interested in what kind of protection or defence is there against the drones. First is how would one detect them and how would one knock them out. Can one make another drone that patrolls an area looking for these spy drones and then somehow shoots them down. Homes in on them then autodestructs... A radar + a laser? An EMP device that would fry their electronics? Would a small heat seeking missile work? Well the…

You could probably use pretty standard ECM techniques to figure out what is a drone and what isn't by listening for their control signals. Of course that wouldn't help with autonomous drones, but those are still a ways off.

A laser sounds pretty good, they're big but you can swivel the beam very fast since you just have to move the mirrors. And they don't fall back to earth like bullets do.

EMPs are hard to produce without explosions of some kind[1], the energy requirements are similar to lasers but the power is way higher. They're hard to make directional, too, leading to a lot of collateral damage whenever you set one off.

[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Explosively_pumped_flux_compres...

Re: Weird, Birdlike Mystery Drone Crashes in Pakistan

#30

Post by wnight » Tue, Aug 30, 2011, 4:14 PM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #20

patio11 wrote: post #4

Here's a potentially scary thought for you: in ~2000, this would have been proof positive of state involvement. In 2011, this is barely newsworthy. In 2021, this will be about as within the reach of the average middle class teenager as a three ounce device capable of instantaneous worldwide encrypted communication. This is not going to be a happy adjustment for people who have to maintain physical security of e.g. a…

Several years ago I thought about writing a short story which included an attack/assassination of an important political figure. The point was to do some brainstorming about ways such an attack could be conducted. After an hour or two, I decided never to write about this subject. The exercise was very eye-opening. The difference between a normal, naked person and a person armed with tech is increasingly dramatically.…

> Disarming the population is not an option here.

Sure it is. Replace general purpose computers with centrally and permanently connected (It's a feature!) computing devices that only run signed apps. Then whenever someone does something too clever you just revoke their developer ID and everything they've written stops working. Justify this control with "piracy" and it'll be accepted.

It won't really work, but it seems like it would to an authoritarian, so it's pretty likely where we're going in such a hurry. Like all false security it just opens us up to a bigger attack, but reality never won an election so government will never handle this properly.

We talk about how nasty Iran, Egypt, Libya, etc, shut down communications preventing the people from changing things, but what measures do we have against our own governments doing the same things? I imagine we're totally screwed. Our government has the resources to do things thoroughly, and as the BART incident recently showed, the willingness to deny service to the innocent to inconvenience protestors.