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Is the four-day workweek finally within our grasp?

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Re: Is the four-day workweek finally within our grasp?

#151

Post by xupybd »

ipaddr wrote: post #105
xupybd wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Higher minimum wage laws do hurt low skilled workers. We have two great big machines at work each will pay for it's self in under a year at current minimum wage rates. There is no choice but to replace the people for machines if we want to remain competitive.

It is a win-win. They force other businesses who can't buy a machine to pay a higher floor. If no jobs exist at all those voters will bring in someone who will tax companies like yours and spread the wealth. Your company gets more productive. Paying some a lower wage because it delays another machine purchase is not a long term solutiom

That job was not a long term position most would either move on or up. People are more flexible than machines. They're a better choice if you can afford it.

Living off of redistributed hand outs sounds like a horrible way to live. How do you improve your life? How do you find meaning?

I live in a country that has 3rd generation beneficiaries. Their lives don't appear enjoyable. Once in that mind set it's so hard to get out. They often turn to drugs and mindless entertainment.

Re: Is the four-day workweek finally within our grasp?

#152

Post by TylerE »

austinl wrote: post #61
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #6

I'm currently working for a company that forces office staff to work a half day on christmas eve with the additional stipulation, of course, that you must burn a full day of vacation to skip it. This despite the fact that no one in the company can ever remember a customer calling on christmas eve. So I'm very skeptical that this trend will grow. It took the IWW to get us the concepts of The Weekend and Sick Days, and…

On the opposite end of the spectrum, the company I work for shuts our offices down from the 24th to the 2nd. Engineers submit availability for on-call schedules, and get a gift card for each on-call day they're responsible for. I feel very spoiled, but I think this is generally a trend amongst west-coast tech companies? I've had a similar experience at previous places, and it seemed like the rationale for the holiday…

It isn't uncommon in industrial situations to shut the plant down for two weeks or so around Christmas/New Years.

Since A: The staff want it off and B: It gives a good window to do heavy maintaince and such

Re: Is the four-day workweek finally within our grasp?

#153

Post by jorblumesea »

jcvhaarst wrote: post #142

Please people, step out of your USA bubble. I (Dutch guy) haven't had a more than 4 day workweek in the last 20 years. It is _your_ choice to "work" 5 days. The 40 hour workweek wasn't created for the worker's benefit, it was created because the owner of the factory saw that that was the most efficient. Paying people to work longer didn't give him benefit.

Most of Europe works 5 days, 40 hr weeks. Sounds like you're in a bubble.

Re: Is the four-day workweek finally within our grasp?

#154

Post by jedberg »

trcarney wrote: post #72
jedberg wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In an ideal spherical cow world, having no minimum wage would work exactly as you describe. In the real world, that's you how get slavery. For many reasons, not everyone has a choice to turn down a $1/hr job.

I don't understand how people hold your view. Would you except a $1/hr job? No, then why do you think other people would. If you can make more money walking through a parking lot picking up change, why would you work. Plus companies wouldn't want to hire at $1/hr because what kind of employee are you getting? Your competitor down the street paying more money would then get the better employees and drive you out of bu…

A recent immigrant who was brought here from a foreign country by a "relative" and then told to work in their shop for $1/hr or be sent back home (or worse) would gladly take that $1/hr job. This actually happens in places that don't have labor protections.

And not just immigrants. Anyone with an abusive parent or partner or any situation where one person holds power over another.

Hence "this is how you get slavery".

Re: Is the four-day workweek finally within our grasp?

#155

Post by giantg2 »

dukeyukey wrote: post #60
giantg2 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear that many of the European countries have lower dev salaries than the US. So maybe better conditions, but possibly lower pay. Our company just started outsourcing IT 5 years ago. It's still expanding that policy.

> I hear that many of the European countries have lower dev salaries than the US. So maybe better conditions, but possibly lower pay. While arguably true, it's almost definitely not better conditions to blame. A more likely source is the massive and relatively homogenous US market, a culture open to immigration, and the huge reserves of capital sloshing about the country.

Yeah, I'm not saying they are related. Just saying it can be a trade-off between higher pay and fewer hours and there are many variables to consider when comparing internationally.

Re: Is the four-day workweek finally within our grasp?

#157

Post by mlyle »

jedberg wrote: post #154
trcarney wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand how people hold your view. Would you except a $1/hr job? No, then why do you think other people would. If you can make more money walking through a parking lot picking up change, why would you work. Plus companies wouldn't want to hire at $1/hr because what kind of employee are you getting? Your competitor down the street paying more money would then get the better employees and drive you out of bu…

A recent immigrant who was brought here from a foreign country by a "relative" and then told to work in their shop for $1/hr or be sent back home (or worse) would gladly take that $1/hr job. This actually happens in places that don't have labor protections. And not just immigrants. Anyone with an abusive parent or partner or any situation where one person holds power over another. Hence "this is how you get slavery".

It actually happens everywhere, even in places that have labor protections.

Re: Is the four-day workweek finally within our grasp?

#158

Post by simonsquiff »

As of January I’m moving to 50% of full time - generally 2.5 days a week, I expect there will be certain months where I do a couple of weeks in a row and little else rest of the month. After 20+ years working full time am incredibly excited about the change and what I can do with the extra space in my life. Due to how tax rates work I get about 58% of previous pay for 50% of the work.

I expect to deliver about 80% of the value I do today - by having a good excuse to jettison the low value stuff, feel more motivated and engaged in the time I do have, feel more refreshed with more mental energy

Time will show if that proves the case…

Re: Is the four-day workweek finally within our grasp?

#159

Post by ptudan »

GordonS wrote: post #35
vitno wrote: post #16

4 day work weeks as a concept real clicked for me when put into ratios. It's a 50% increase in personal time and only a 20% reduction in work hours.

I switched to a 4-day work week several years ago (maybe 7 or 8, forget), taking. 20% pay cut. Ot really does feel like such a better work-life balance - as you say, it's a much bigger increase in personal time than it is a decrease in working hours. And I am just as productive as when I worked 5 days a week!

This is better than the math looks, as the 20% you lose is taxed at your highest marginal rates. Your take home difference is probably closer to 12% which is much more palatable.

Re: Is the four-day workweek finally within our grasp?

#160

Post by kbenson »

mlyle wrote: post #73
kbenson wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a little worried about how that would affect the lower class in the short term. It's easy to say that they'll get more money as they'll get a day of overtime, but I think it's more likely that a lot of people will find that businesses just staffed up more for low skilled positions (and eventually for skilled positions), and then people have more time but are only making 80% of what they were previously, and can't…

I'm not saying to abolish the minimum wage. I'm just saying to reduce the nominal workweek before overtime. > just staffed up more for low skilled positions (and eventually for skilled positions), There's not an infinite supply of bodies out there. It's not clear where you'd just "find 10% more people"-- at least not without raising comp. And, of course, getting closer to full employment is a good thing in itself...…

> It's not clear where you'd just "find 10% more people"

As another commenter noted, maybe from all those people that are no longer making enough to make ends meet. Now you have someone working two jobs, maybe at like 16-24 hours each, and if one of those needs more hours, well, now you're working more than 40 hours a week overall but less than 32 per job and not getting overtime for any of it.

I could easily see something like this being one of those well intentioned policies with major negative outcomes.

> 36/40 = 90%,

My mistake, I missed where you defined it as just dropping four hours off, and "shorter work week" sounds like cutting a day off to me, so I assumed the wrong thing.

Even so, 10% is not an amount a lot of people can sustain. You posit that there's a lot more people getting 30-35 hours, but I'm not so sure of that, so would definitely want to see some numbers before endorsing anything like this. Additionally, I think a lot of people that are working less hours are doing so because in some cases employers can get around some laws about sick time and paid time off if employees aren't "full time".

The bottom line is that if people have more money, they can choose to work less. Just make sure people are paid more and they'll choose to work less if that's actually important to them, and they'll seek out jobs that offer things they care about (such as less work hours) if that's important to them. Reducing the expected working hours is nice, but I doubt most the people that would actually need it (those working demanding or demeaning jobs) would trade that for less pay given the realities. The only people that can really make use of that are the middle and upper class, and they can already choose to prioritize that and look for work that allows it given their financial stability.

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