Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates • Hacker News Board

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#121

Post by JavaBatman » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 3:39 PM UTC

Bhilai wrote: post #97

Mandates are probably not going to work but what would work is denying insurance claims. If someone ends up in a hospital occupying an ICU bed for an illness that could have been prevented by a vaccine widely and freely available then insurance companies (and medicare) should refuse to pay thousands of dollars for their treatment. It was their choice not to use preventative care available.

That also doesn't work because that same precedent can be used for other preventative health issues such as obesity. "Well, you shouldn't have been eating all those cheeseburgers, sorry"

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#122

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 3:39 PM UTC

Bhilai wrote: post #97

Mandates are probably not going to work but what would work is denying insurance claims. If someone ends up in a hospital occupying an ICU bed for an illness that could have been prevented by a vaccine widely and freely available then insurance companies (and medicare) should refuse to pay thousands of dollars for their treatment. It was their choice not to use preventative care available.

[deleted]

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#123

Post by NoPie » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 3:39 PM UTC

kiba wrote: post #53

roamerz wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except this isn’t about almost anything else. This is about control over one’s body. This is from someone who chose freely to get the vaccine. Even at my own peril I support other’s freedom to choose.

Your freedom to control over one's body ends when it comes to the safety and health of other people's bodies. That's why herd immunity is a thing.

Not in the case of current covid vaccines and variants.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#124

Post by SuoDuanDao » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 3:39 PM UTC

kiba wrote: post #53

roamerz wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except this isn’t about almost anything else. This is about control over one’s body. This is from someone who chose freely to get the vaccine. Even at my own peril I support other’s freedom to choose.

Your freedom to control over one's body ends when it comes to the safety and health of other people's bodies. That's why herd immunity is a thing.

Identical arguments are made around abortion. Or mandatory organ/blood donations. Actually, nobody argues for mandatory blood donations because we can all tell that would be icky.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#125

Post by tfandango » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 3:40 PM UTC

btbuildem wrote: post #104

Bhilai wrote: post #97

Mandates are probably not going to work but what would work is denying insurance claims. If someone ends up in a hospital occupying an ICU bed for an illness that could have been prevented by a vaccine widely and freely available then insurance companies (and medicare) should refuse to pay thousands of dollars for their treatment. It was their choice not to use preventative care available.

There's no point, because these people usually just die. Who does the hospital go after, the estate? The family?

The estate yes, I imagine that is what they do in the case of a death not caused by covid? I've also been wondering when insurance will begin denying claims for this, there's a basically free option to prevent most hospital stays, vs thousands in bills to pay, this is the responsible business decision to make in my mind.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#126

Post by clukic » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 3:40 PM UTC

roamerz wrote: post #45

mattzito wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that the role of the CMS, as established by congress, is to set the guidelines of care and standards of participation for providers who opt to accept Medicare and Medicaid patients. They set rules for everything from how many hospitals can be owned by a single entity, to what sorts of qualifications are required for hospital administrators, to what types of medical orders are allowed to be given to patients. T…

Except this isn’t about almost anything else. This is about control over one’s body. This is from someone who chose freely to get the vaccine. Even at my own peril I support other’s freedom to choose.

Does that mean you support a rollback of all vaccine requirements? For example the MMR, TDap, HepB, polio, chicken pox vaccines required for school children? Or the numerous vaccines required for military personal?

And would you be comfortable having a pediatrician who wasn't inoculated for diphtheria knowing that an infection could be fatal for your baby?

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#127

Post by DSMan195276 » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 3:41 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #91

DSMan195276 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I see with this kind of argument is that whether a health care provider provides abortion services has very little (nothing) to do with the care given to a medicaid or medicare patients. Where-as them being vaccinated for COVID does have a very clear impact on medicaid/medicare patients, especially since medicare patients are more likely to be in a high risk group (IE: old). It seems to me like you just d…

> The problem I see with this kind of argument is that whether a health care provider provides abortion services has very little (nothing) to do with the care given to a medicaid or medicare patients. There's no mechanism to enforce this reasoning. It's whether the agency has the power to do it or not. For instance it could be argued that natural immunity is far superior to vaccines, so excluding healthcare workers w…

> There's no mechanism to enforce this reasoning. It's whether the agency has the power to do it or not. For instance it could be argued that natural immunity is far superior to vaccines, so excluding healthcare workers with natural immunity from working is not about protecting patients.

I'm not sure what you're getting at, Congress gave the agency the power to set guidelines for requirements for caring for medicaid/medicare patients, that's what they do. If a guideline would not actually impact medicaid/medicare patients, then they can't do it and it would rightfully get struck down in court when it is challenged for not falling within their powers. That's quite literally the same mechanism currently being used to challenge their power to require vaccines.

Your point about natural immunity seems reasonable, it doesn't mean requiring vaccines for those without natural immunity wouldn't still make sense though so I don't think it really fits your point. Claiming that the particular way they went about this requirement is bad is different from saying they can't require a vaccine at all. I think your point makes some sense, but it could still be paired with a vaccine requirement making it effectively the same thing.

> ???

I thought what I said was pretty self explanatory. If Medicare and Medicaid are going to be worth it then we have to have some standard level of care that we're paying for - we shouldn't be paying tons of money just for medicare/medicaid patients to receive bad care. Why should my tax dollars to go a healthcare provider who doesn't want to get the vaccine when that money can go to one who will? The medicare/medicaid patients that we're paying for will get better treatment from those healthcare providers who require vaccination, and if better care is not the goal than what is?

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#128

Post by lukeschlather » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 3:41 PM UTC

bko wrote: post #91

DSMan195276 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I see with this kind of argument is that whether a health care provider provides abortion services has very little (nothing) to do with the care given to a medicaid or medicare patients. Where-as them being vaccinated for COVID does have a very clear impact on medicaid/medicare patients, especially since medicare patients are more likely to be in a high risk group (IE: old). It seems to me like you just d…

> The problem I see with this kind of argument is that whether a health care provider provides abortion services has very little (nothing) to do with the care given to a medicaid or medicare patients. There's no mechanism to enforce this reasoning. It's whether the agency has the power to do it or not. For instance it could be argued that natural immunity is far superior to vaccines, so excluding healthcare workers w…

"it could be argued" is not a substitute for the judgement of the regulatory body. The regulatory body hears arguments and makes a determination, I'm pretty sure that's the mechanism. (And it sounds like the court has decided to overrule it on shaky grounds.)

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#129

Post by wavefunction » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 3:41 PM UTC

orang2tang wrote: post #67

AuthorizedCust wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Could you imagine a news report about how the much touted vaccine efficacy of 95% didn't really pan out? It didn’t pan out because of Delta, a way more infectious variant that became common well after the 95% figure was determined. And it’s fully accurate to say that despite Delta, the vaccines are effective at preventing severe disease, hospitalization, and death. I think that’s a very good thing!

Anyone who took a biology class and paid attention could have told you that an efficacy-killing variant was an inevitability. Hell, even tinfoil hat Alex Jones said the same thing, and was for that specific instance, vindicated entirely. The top virologists didn't just "not take this into account", they willfully withheld this truth of how viruses operate in order to push a flakey, quickly-deteriorating product into…

The 95% efficacy claim was the result of a scientific study of the efficacy of the vaccine against COVID infection. It was definitely not a lie unless you are an insane person with an outrageous definition of what a "lie" is.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#130

Post by driverdan » Wed, Dec 01, 2021, 3:41 PM UTC

cies wrote: post #100

adrr wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banning health care providers from abortion would be unconstitutional. It would be the same as a president banning health care providers from serving muslims. Women have a constitutional right to get an abortion. People don't have a constitutional right to not vaccinate. Government can and has jailed and/or fined people for not getting a vaccine. These SCOTUS approved mandates helped rid America of smallpox.

> Banning health care providers from abortion would be unconstitutional. Forcing care workers to take a medicine against their will is constitutional you say? All medical procedures should be voluntary, or we go back to the times of lobotomy and forced sterilizations of minorities (and that's not as many decades back as you may think). > Government can and has jailed and/or fined people for not getting a vaccine. Thi…

> Forcing care workers to take a medicine against their will is constitutional you say?

They are not forced. They can choose to find another job if they don't want it.