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Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

reuters.com

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Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#111

Post by jtbayly »

curt15 wrote: post #39
bko wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Requiring employees to be vaccinated as a condition to accepting Medicare seems pretty reasonable to me. That's just a backdoor for giving more power to the federal branch. Its like 'interstate commerce' where anything that has interstate implications (pretty much everything) can be influenced by the federal government. What if an anti-abortion president elected someone to this board and told them that no health ca…

The vaccine is mandated as a condition for employment. Is it different from universities requiring vaccines for their students (Indiana University already won a legal challenge -- https://www.scotusblog.com/2021/08/barrett-leaves-indiana-un... ) or military personnel having to get a battery of shots when they enlist? All those requirements should survive or fall together.

Mandated not by their employer, but by the federal government's executive branch is the question at hand.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#112

Post by nickgros »

bko wrote: post #91
DSMan195276 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem I see with this kind of argument is that whether a health care provider provides abortion services has very little (nothing) to do with the care given to a medicaid or medicare patients. Where-as them being vaccinated for COVID does have a very clear impact on medicaid/medicare patients, especially since medicare patients are more likely to be in a high risk group (IE: old). It seems to me like you just d…

> The problem I see with this kind of argument is that whether a health care provider provides abortion services has very little (nothing) to do with the care given to a medicaid or medicare patients. There's no mechanism to enforce this reasoning. It's whether the agency has the power to do it or not. For instance it could be argued that natural immunity is far superior to vaccines, so excluding healthcare workers w…

> There's no mechanism to enforce this reasoning.

The mechanism would be the judicial system, and in the case of restricting abortion services, the regulation would probably be subject to strict scrutiny.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_scrutiny

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#113

Post by bingohbangoh »

redblacktree wrote: post #105
teeray wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, that’s the loophole. What’s happening here is yet another end-run around the democratic process. People are tired of emergency powers, executive orders, and delegated authority being used to enact some of the most impactful laws of our time. We want the Schoolhouse Rock version of law-making because we at least get something of a say in it.

Congress has delegated the authority to make these decisions to regulatory agencies. If congress wants that authority back, they can get it back via legislation. The responsibility for the current situation starts and stops with congress. The executive branch is doing what congress has asked it to do, and the executive branch would stop doing those things the moment that congress legislated the authority back to them…

Does the CDC have regulatory mandates to ensure vaccination? Does this extend to "get vaccinated or get fired?"

People very broadly give power to the CDC that I don't think they have.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#114

Post by JavaBatman »

kiba wrote: post #53
roamerz wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except this isn’t about almost anything else. This is about control over one’s body. This is from someone who chose freely to get the vaccine. Even at my own peril I support other’s freedom to choose.

Your freedom to control over one's body ends when it comes to the safety and health of other people's bodies. That's why herd immunity is a thing.

There is no right to not receive another's germs. If we take your argument to its logical conclusion, then the flu vaccine would be mandated. But it's not. So if you say that Covid is different, then what is your threshold or cut-off for when a medical procedure should be mandated?

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#115

Post by bbatha »

willcipriano wrote: post #88
adrr wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banning health care providers from abortion would be unconstitutional. It would be the same as a president banning health care providers from serving muslims. Women have a constitutional right to get an abortion. People don't have a constitutional right to not vaccinate. Government can and has jailed and/or fined people for not getting a vaccine. These SCOTUS approved mandates helped rid America of smallpox.

Ehh constructional right is a bit strong. The supreme court ruled that the 14th amendment[0], has somewhere hidden within it a right to privacy. This right to privacy appearently applies exclusively to abortion, as warrentless wiretapping of every US citizen has been determined not to be a constitutional violation. I find it funny that they can find a right to privacy in the 14th, but give the thumbs up to civil asse…

The right to privacy is in the 4th amendment, the 14th amendment is used to "incorporate" constitutional rights to the states. Prior to the 14th amendment the rights in the constitution only prevent abridgement of rights by the federal government but states were free to take them away.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#116

Post by Chris2048 »

kiba wrote: post #53
roamerz wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except this isn’t about almost anything else. This is about control over one’s body. This is from someone who chose freely to get the vaccine. Even at my own peril I support other’s freedom to choose.

Your freedom to control over one's body ends when it comes to the safety and health of other people's bodies. That's why herd immunity is a thing.

> safety and health of other people's bodies

Does that not include the unborn?

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#117

Post by adrr »

Chris2048 wrote: post #94
adrr wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banning health care providers from abortion would be unconstitutional. It would be the same as a president banning health care providers from serving muslims. Women have a constitutional right to get an abortion. People don't have a constitutional right to not vaccinate. Government can and has jailed and/or fined people for not getting a vaccine. These SCOTUS approved mandates helped rid America of smallpox.

Then just ban men from having them as well. > Women have a constitutional right to get an abortion. Do they? Where is that written? EDIT: the vague "life, liberty, or property" clause as interpreted by Roe vs Wade. This is such a blank-cheque it may as well not be in the constitution as in hands all power to the interpretation of the courts.

" the vague "life, liberty, or property" clause as interpreted by Roe vs Wade. This is such a blank-cheque it may as well not be in the constitution as in hands all power to the interpretation of the courts."

If you read federalist papers or any of the writings of founders on the constitution. The constitution is a living document that is decided by the courts. It is really hard to have a fruitful debate without people having even basic knowledge on this subject.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#118

Post by runako »

Bhilai wrote: post #97

Mandates are probably not going to work but what would work is denying insurance claims. If someone ends up in a hospital occupying an ICU bed for an illness that could have been prevented by a vaccine widely and freely available then insurance companies (and medicare) should refuse to pay thousands of dollars for their treatment. It was their choice not to use preventative care available.

Anecdotal evidence would appear to support the conclusion that work-based mandates do increase vaccination numbers. People would rather get their shots than lose their jobs.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#119

Post by primoJS »

Bhilai wrote: post #97

Mandates are probably not going to work but what would work is denying insurance claims. If someone ends up in a hospital occupying an ICU bed for an illness that could have been prevented by a vaccine widely and freely available then insurance companies (and medicare) should refuse to pay thousands of dollars for their treatment. It was their choice not to use preventative care available.

Obesity is preventable in 95+% of cases, maybe insurance companies should deny coverage to ~40% of the US?

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#120

Post by roamerz »

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #107
roamerz wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course, the demographics of the court has changed. Thats a problem when the demographics of a ruling body affect rights protected by the Constitution. Wisely the Constitution also provides remedy for when that gets too out of hand: “the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." I think one area the Constitution missed the boat is that when a politician or someone in delegated power make…

Are there any laws that don't infringe on someone's freedoms in some manner? Speeding, theft, discrimination, environmental protections, that's all infringing on one party's freedoms for the protection of themselves or others. That's basically what a law does, it restricts some form of freedom in an effort to provide some form of safety or equity.

There are plenty of laws that affect someone’s freedom as you pointed out. I’m talking about Constitutional rights such as free speech or the right to bear arms.

If you don’t agree with those provisions there is a method to change them and too often short cuts are made that are only corrected after the fact in the courts. Take for instance Biden's vaccine mandate. He knew that was unlawful yet he knowingly did it anyhow. There should be a personal consequence to that beyond not being re-elected.

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