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Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

reuters.com

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Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#31

Post by mattzito »

bko wrote: post #3

> Doughty said the CMS lacked the authority to issue a vaccine mandate that would require more than 2 million unvaccinated healthcare workers to get a coronavirus shot. > "There is no question that mandating a vaccine to 10.3 million healthcare workers is something that should be done by Congress, not a government agency," wrote Doughty. That's a good point. You can agree that its within the federal authority to mand…

Except that the role of the CMS, as established by congress, is to set the guidelines of care and standards of participation for providers who opt to accept Medicare and Medicaid patients.

They set rules for everything from how many hospitals can be owned by a single entity, to what sorts of qualifications are required for hospital administrators, to what types of medical orders are allowed to be given to patients. Their explicit charter is to ensure Medicare and medicaid patients are cared for and their health is looked after. From that lens, requiring a vaccination that reduces the likelihood that one of those patients is infected with a potentially deadly disease (particularly deadly for those on Medicare, given the demo), is eminently reasonable.

And the administrator is confirmed by congress. If this regulation was about almost anything else, this would be a nothingburger

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#32

Post by bko »

mattzito wrote: post #31
bko wrote: post #3

> Doughty said the CMS lacked the authority to issue a vaccine mandate that would require more than 2 million unvaccinated healthcare workers to get a coronavirus shot. > "There is no question that mandating a vaccine to 10.3 million healthcare workers is something that should be done by Congress, not a government agency," wrote Doughty. That's a good point. You can agree that its within the federal authority to mand…

Except that the role of the CMS, as established by congress, is to set the guidelines of care and standards of participation for providers who opt to accept Medicare and Medicaid patients. They set rules for everything from how many hospitals can be owned by a single entity, to what sorts of qualifications are required for hospital administrators, to what types of medical orders are allowed to be given to patients. T…

> to what types of medical orders are allowed to be given to patients

Suppose an anti-abortion president gets elected and he elects someone as head and tells them that health care providers that accept medicare or medicaid cannot provide abortions. Not making it illegal per-se, but just for the providers that accept medicare or medicaid for any of their services.

You okay with this as well?

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#33

Post by avs733 »

bko wrote: post #19
kitd wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can agree that its within the federal authority to mandate vaccines, but it really should be a decision made and explicitly endorsed by elected representatives rather than some agency (Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services) that I have never heard of until now and whose head is appointed by one person. If the CMS does it, it is a public health decision. Doing it in Congress makes it a political decision. IMO,…

I disagree. It is a political decision to force 2 million Americans to get a vaccine that they don't want under threat of not being allowed to work in their profession. If you disagree with the decision at least you can vote the bastards out. You're acting like its a trivial procedural matter. These people obviously feel very strongly about it since they're under immense pressure everywhere to get it and they still r…

congress could have acted here, they could still act. they didn't. Not doing something is a choice when it occurs in reaction to someone else doing something.

Whether it is a 'trivial' procedural matter simply isn't affected by people's strongly held beliefs

Strongly held beliefs don't exempt you from seat belt laws, from tax rules, or from any other law unless congress doing the thing congress is designed to do allows for it. It shouldn't.

CMS isn't unelected...it is an arm of the executive branch headed by the, elected, president and run by someone confirmed by the elected senate. It is given the authority to make rules in specific areas by the elected congress.

Your entire thread or argument is predicated on a false assumption...

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#34

Post by refurb »

0xB31B1B wrote: post #7

Garbage ruling from the least democratic branch of government in the US. The whole project of "dismantling the administrative state" of which this decision rolls up to is absolutely insane in 2021 and will lead this country to a path of ruin. This decision is part of a much larger play by Federalist Society judges to remove the ability of our government to do virtually anything.

You’ve pretty much given the best argument possible for separation of powers that the Founding Fathers put in place.

I don’t think that’s what you intended, but thank you!

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#35

Post by mherdeg »

bko wrote: post #3

> Doughty said the CMS lacked the authority to issue a vaccine mandate that would require more than 2 million unvaccinated healthcare workers to get a coronavirus shot. > "There is no question that mandating a vaccine to 10.3 million healthcare workers is something that should be done by Congress, not a government agency," wrote Doughty. That's a good point. You can agree that its within the federal authority to mand…

> Could you imagine a news report about how the much touted vaccine efficacy of 95% didn't really pan out? It's true.

Do you mean like "Efficacy of Pfizer/BioNTech Covid vaccine slips to 84% after six months, data show" (https://www.statnews.com/2021/07/28/efficacy-of-pfizer-biont...) or "Covid-19 Vaccine Efficacy: What Do the Numbers Really Mean?" (https://www.wsj.com/articles/covid-19-vaccine-efficacy-what-...)? Or did you have something else in mind?

I thought this was pretty well-discussed as VRBPAC/ACIP began to review the data guiding their third dose/booster recommendations but maybe I've misunderstood.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#36

Post by invokestatic »

bko wrote: post #28
invokestatic wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s actually reasonable for an agency (CMS) to decide eligibility criteria for receiving federal Medicare and Medicaid dollars. This was authority granted to the agency by Congress. Requiring employees to be vaccinated as a condition to accepting Medicare seems pretty reasonable to me. Just as I would hope hospitals need to meet basic care standards to be eligible as well. Congress often delegates their powe…

> Requiring employees to be vaccinated as a condition to accepting Medicare seems pretty reasonable to me. That's just a backdoor for giving more power to the federal branch. Its like 'interstate commerce' where anything that has interstate implications (pretty much everything) can be influenced by the federal government. What if an anti-abortion president elected someone to this board and told them that no health ca…

It's interesting you bring up both commerce clause and abortion as I'm currently taking a constitutional law class covering both issues. The commerce clause did wildly expand through the 20th century, but I just want to point out that US v Lopez substantially cut back Congress' Commerce power. It laid out clear restrictions to what and when Congress has the power to regulate interstate commerce. Further cases like NFIB v Sebelius (Obamacare) also cut down on commerce power.

The difference I see with abortion is that the SCOTUS held in Roe v Wade that women have an affirmative right to an abortion under substantive due process of the 14th amendment. If the government coerced healthcare providers to stop providing abortions, this would be a direct infringement on a right protected by the constitution. Conversely, there is no constitutional right to /not/ get a vaccine. Of course, the demographics of the court has changed, so it's very possible the SC will rule that not getting vaccinated is also a constitutional right conferred by substantive due process.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#37

Post by avs733 »

HonestOp001 wrote: post #16
0xB31B1B wrote: post #7

Garbage ruling from the least democratic branch of government in the US. The whole project of "dismantling the administrative state" of which this decision rolls up to is absolutely insane in 2021 and will lead this country to a path of ruin. This decision is part of a much larger play by Federalist Society judges to remove the ability of our government to do virtually anything.

How large should the administrative state get? We have unelected officials who are making decisions against the will of the people. The entire system is too large for any person to affect change. That is why we see “crises;” they allow people to focus the group onto a crisis. In normal times, the entire industry reverts to how can they increase their size..

please provide evidence to support this claim:

"We have unelected officials who are making decisions against the will of the people."

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#38

Post by golemotron »

mattzito wrote: post #31
bko wrote: post #3

> Doughty said the CMS lacked the authority to issue a vaccine mandate that would require more than 2 million unvaccinated healthcare workers to get a coronavirus shot. > "There is no question that mandating a vaccine to 10.3 million healthcare workers is something that should be done by Congress, not a government agency," wrote Doughty. That's a good point. You can agree that its within the federal authority to mand…

Except that the role of the CMS, as established by congress, is to set the guidelines of care and standards of participation for providers who opt to accept Medicare and Medicaid patients. They set rules for everything from how many hospitals can be owned by a single entity, to what sorts of qualifications are required for hospital administrators, to what types of medical orders are allowed to be given to patients. T…

That's the key problem with the US now. Elected representatives are allowed to delegate law making. It breaks the line of accountability. It makes contentious issues worse.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#39

Post by curt15 »

bko wrote: post #28
invokestatic wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s actually reasonable for an agency (CMS) to decide eligibility criteria for receiving federal Medicare and Medicaid dollars. This was authority granted to the agency by Congress. Requiring employees to be vaccinated as a condition to accepting Medicare seems pretty reasonable to me. Just as I would hope hospitals need to meet basic care standards to be eligible as well. Congress often delegates their powe…

> Requiring employees to be vaccinated as a condition to accepting Medicare seems pretty reasonable to me. That's just a backdoor for giving more power to the federal branch. Its like 'interstate commerce' where anything that has interstate implications (pretty much everything) can be influenced by the federal government. What if an anti-abortion president elected someone to this board and told them that no health ca…

The vaccine is mandated as a condition for employment. Is it different from universities requiring vaccines for their students (Indiana University already won a legal challenge -- https://www.scotusblog.com/2021/08/barrett-leaves-indiana-un...) or military personnel having to get a battery of shots when they enlist? All those requirements should survive or fall together.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#40

Post by pawelmurias »

kspacewalk2 wrote: post #12
0xB31B1B wrote: post #7

Garbage ruling from the least democratic branch of government in the US. The whole project of "dismantling the administrative state" of which this decision rolls up to is absolutely insane in 2021 and will lead this country to a path of ruin. This decision is part of a much larger play by Federalist Society judges to remove the ability of our government to do virtually anything.

>Garbage ruling from the least democratic branch of government in the US. Is... that meant to be a bad thing? Yes, judicial branch should not be directly accountable to voters. In fact, as a Canadian, I find the idea of electing judges to be so thoroughly strange that it almost defies belief. Why the hell would you want your judicial branch to be "democratic", as in directly and immediately beholden to the whims of t…

Is having judges be only accountable to politicians and unclear financial interests pulling the strings be that much better?
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