Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#141

Post by tdfx » Mon, Aug 29, 2011, 9:50 PM UTC

sunchild wrote: post #66

51Cards wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but people don't WANT to learn things like this. My mother doesn't want to remember what mouse button to click or that CTRL or ALT is a modifier on this command. I would argue that THIS is what made Apple's OS hang on all those years it was in the severe minority. There is a segment of the population that wants only one mouse button to click, not 3, not 3 plus CTRL or ALT or etc. Apple did end up having to rely h…

This doesn't explain the "invert selection" button. I'm pretty sure that one is indefensible.

If there was ever an option to be hidden deep within the confines of a user-inaccessible context menu, "invert selection" is definitely it.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#142

Post by oemera » Mon, Aug 29, 2011, 9:59 PM UTC

pointyhat wrote: post #99

Disclaimer: I'm a Windows and Mac OS X "power user" and I'm going to be rather critical of Apple who are seen as at the forefront of UI design. I'm probably going to get voted down for this. I'm a proponent of the Ribbon UI and I fucking hate toolbars in OS X. I use Outlook, Word, Excel and Windows Live Mail extensively. All of which have the ribbon UI. It turns out that for the sake of actually getting stuff done, t…

You sure are a "Mac power user" who just don't have a clue what the menu bar in OS X is for and for it... Apple is crap and theire products are overpriced and the OS is a piece of crap too because you can't figure how to use it. Are kidding me? I bet that you only once used Mac OS X in an Apple Store for 1 minute.

I understand that a lot Microsoft people don't like Apple and Mac OS X but to say to be an power user of both systems and only use the terminal in OS X cause it is too complicated is little bit too much of it, isn't it? I can tell you the exact difference: I used office 2003 for a very long time and since we at work switched to 2007 I can't find anything. Ribbons everywhere but not one Ribbon is self explaining. Not even ONE. Sure you get used to it and after a lot wasted time you know where those things are now BUT getting used to it doesn't speak for a great UI design!

But maybe the complicated stuff fits you better but I doubt such thing!

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#143

Post by strmpnk » Mon, Aug 29, 2011, 10:00 PM UTC

While I haven't used this UI and I think it's bulky and ugly, there is one important thing to note that I think people miss on first pass.

Typical use based on their research has used the context menu. On Windows that is typically a right click (IIRC). Now Windows 8 has claimed to moving towards more touch capable user interface. I'd imagine anything that is directly touchable with common controls being larger targets is a huge improvement from right-click simulation. These controls, while ugly, I could see as an improvement to usability in those scenarios.

Additionally, I haven't seen any effective file management interfaces for touch devices yet. Most of them shun the filesystem in favor of flattened document collections, so it will be interesting to see how this plays out on upcoming tablet devices. Personally, I was looking forward to stepping away from filesystems and lessening their role in my regular interactions, but time will tell where valuable experiences will be spent, so I'd say we wait and see for this one.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#144

Post by chetan51 » Mon, Aug 29, 2011, 10:00 PM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #39

The writer of this blog uses a picture of the Golden Gate bridge as the background image on the page. As someone who lives near the bridge, I can affirm that at any given time, more than 50% of the bridge is empty; that is, less than half of the bridge's surface is covered by cars or pedestrians. Clearly this is a complete waste of resources, and we should just get rid of the empty half. Also, what is up with those s…

Civil engineering is very different from UI design.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#145

Post by sirn » Mon, Aug 29, 2011, 10:03 PM UTC

sid0 wrote: post #125

revscat wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lion 10.7.1 was a whopping 79.3MB. That's nothing, especially for an OS point release. And judging by the popular success of the iPad I have to disagree with the suggestion that Apple is less inclusive.

Lion 10.7.1 was a whopping 79.3MB. Well, they might have fixed it then. All I know is that I balked at the 1GB OS X update waiting for me. And judging by the popular success of the iPad I have to disagree with the suggestion that Apple is less inclusive. The iPad is only popular in rich first world countries. You will find tons of PCs running Windows in not-so-rich countries, orders of magnitude more. That is exactly…

> The iPad is only popular in rich first world countries.

At very least in Bangkok, which is obviously not belongs to rich first world countries, I can see iPad (and Galaxy Tab) everywhere on a train or even in a not-so-expensive restaurant. My not-so-rich neighbor bought an iPad few weeks ago and ask if I could help him setup Wi-Fi, etc.

Maybe I have an Apple-fan Attraction Field turned on or something, but I've found iPad-availablity around me to be pretty amazing. It's hard to deny that Windows-running PCs are still orders of magnitude more but it's still amazing.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#146

Post by kenjackson » Mon, Aug 29, 2011, 10:03 PM UTC

lancewiggs wrote: post #132

Yhippa wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Also, Microsoft research what you want rather than tell you what you're having (like Apple do)." I feel that's one contributing factor to the bloat of Microsoft Office applications. Instead of having some governance around what features to include you have them including feature after feature that may not align to something more cohesive. As a result after the nth version you have a piece of software with features b…

I'm an Excel geek - and yes sorry I've done far too much VBA in my time. The ribbon has all but destroyed Office for me. The commands are randomly scattered about the sub-menus of the ribbon, much of the content is stuff I will never ever use and it takes up a ridiculous amount of space. While it seems a large step backwards to folks like me who were expert users, the ribbon apparently makes it easier for "average" u…

You're not really a power Excel user. :-)

I'm a power Excel user and I can tell you that Excel 2010 is a vast improvement over 2007. 2007 a vast improvement over 2003. There are many things you can do in 2010 that are literally not possible in 2007. 2003 feels like a barebones spreadsheet now.

There are still lots of things missing in Excel, and as a VBA developer I know you can appreciate missing things like the lack of a unified event hierarchy. But its getting noticeably better each release.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#147

Post by hernan7 » Mon, Aug 29, 2011, 10:04 PM UTC

aw3c2 wrote: post #31

hernan7 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "copy to" and "move to" buttons, seem to be some variation on the old "send to" command, which is currently available via both right-click and menu bar. (For those not familiar with Windows: if I select a file, the "send to" options are: compressed folder, create desktop shortcut, documents, fax, email, burn to DVD, network directory.) Personally, that's an command that I never use; not sure how popular it is wit…

It is one thing I love to show "normal" people. They can use it to easily copy files to eg USB sticks or even select images to send by mail. These are tremendously useful for those people.

Fair enough. Usually, when I copy files to USB I have 2 windows open and drag from one to another.

The "send to" email, however: I don't think you can use it with any web-based email, correct? Do people usually have Outlook set up on their machines these days?

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#148

Post by contextfree » Mon, Aug 29, 2011, 10:05 PM UTC

Between this and the last post about the copy dialogs with their graphs etc., I wonder if they are making a conscious decision to focus the traditional desktop UI more on "power use cases" (not necessarily "power users"). It's telling that the PM prominently talks up Copy as Path and batch file scripting in the video. It makes a certain amount of sense - for casual use there's the relatively minimalist, design-y immersive UI, so the people working on the desktop UI feel free to focus on the remaining use cases and move in the opposite direction.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#149

Post by kenjackson » Mon, Aug 29, 2011, 10:05 PM UTC

wtallis wrote: post #18

varunsrin wrote: post #9

The first problem with the article here is that some of the buttons (Move To, Copy To) did not exist previously. They are also extensions of existing functions (Move, Copy) - so concluding that half the UI is covered by buttons that were not used is an inaccurate assumption. Secondly, the actions are being moved from the context menu to the ribbon. Most new computer users find it very hard to remember additional, non…

According to Microsoft's data, more than 85% of the command usage in Explorer is through keyboard shortcuts or context menus. Clearly, it isn't that hard to get used to using context menus and keyboard shortcuts. It seems to me that a lot of people here on HN are simply using this issue to talk about how much better they are at using a computer than the ordinary person, who is apparently quite inept. Unless there is…

A lot of people have addressed a mistake in your reasoning (selective bias, only way to do things, etc...). Another point is that context menus aren't touch friendly. The ribbon works surprisingly well for touch.

Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody

#150

Post by zwaldowski » Mon, Aug 29, 2011, 10:07 PM UTC

whatusername wrote: post #109

varunsrin wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's cumbersome because you have to navigate through a bunch of menus - however, its easy because you have a finite, visible set of actions to look through those menus (tap, swipe, repeat) and a finite set of menus themselves. In a desktop OS, you have a seemingly infinite set of modifiers (Ctrl, Alt, Double click, click, right click, Ctrl + Shift), which are not 'logical' operations like tapping and swiping - they m…

Tap, swipe, draw apart, draw together, click home button, double click home button, click headset button, double click headset button, triple click headset button, Press external volume button, flick mute/screen-lock button, press lock button, hold lock button. I'm sure there's a few more buried in there that I haven't discovered. (Like swipe backwards to delete an item from a list)

Except that those boil down to a couple of basic gestures: tap, pinch, swipe. The hardware buttons are irrelevant in this case. Oh, and swipe to delete? That's in the "manual" that comes with the device. It's smaller than a dollar, for god's sake.