The UI, is apparently customizable. From the Team Blog: "We knew that using a ribbon for Explorer would likely be met with skepticism by a set of power-users (like me), but there are clear benefits in ways that the ribbon: -Exposes hidden features that they already use but which require third party add-ons to use in the Explorer UI today. -Provides keyboard shortcuts for every command in the ribbon, something many pe…
Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody
61–70 of 330 posts
Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody
#62I just showed this to a Mac user who responded "Streamlined! Intuitive! Look at all that stuff, why would I use that?"
I'm a heavy Mac user, but Finder is and has always been one of OS X's pain points and its gotten worse in Lion. Until I changed it when I opened a Finder window it defaults to a list of "All My Files" which is useless (the first 20 or so items are __init__.py)
You're a programmer, use the terminal.
Also most "normal" users do not have a single __init__.py I like the new Finder but I rarely use it... ack FTW!
Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
Work in support sometime. It is EXTREMELY common to find users that really don't know about right-click. Or that double-click everything. These are not new users either, they have been using computers for decades. For new users I might agree that they could figure out a right click because everything is new. But for users where everything is familiar ("I've always done it this way"), it gets much harder to break thos…
Do those users use the desktop shell at all though? In my experience with novice users (across platforms: Mac noobs are no better) is that they only know enough to launch apps. They never touch the desktop integration at all.
When my grandfather uses the computer, he reorganizes the desktop, and puts files in folders, and sometimes wants to delete things, yes.
All of those actions require knowing how to [delete], [open folders], [drag and drop].
Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody
#64Everyone I know loves managing their files, so it's great that Microsoft is finally improving Windows Explorer! WRONG! For the hundreds of nerds complaining that they don't have access to the file system on their iPads, there are millions of normal people who are delighted by a computer that they can use rather than manage. How much longer can Microsoft keep making a 20th century operating system? What's going to be…
How do you copy a bunch of documents and pictures from and to a USB drive without a filesystem?
I'm not saying you don't need a filesystem. There are other ways to interact with data besides a file browser.
On the iPad, I can use the official Photos app (or any of the other photo apps) to get my photos where they need to go, whether that's a phone, computer, website or printer.
I don't read my email by going into the "My Emails" folder on my C:\ drive, I access my email through a UI specifically made for accessing email.
I don't manage individual contact files, I access my contacts through an address book app.
I don't manage individual music files, I use iTunes.
Most operating systems already encourage separating files by type, I'm taking it a step further by suggesting that 90% of users would be better served by many type-specific file browsers than a single general purpose one.
Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody
#65Everyone I know loves managing their files, so it's great that Microsoft is finally improving Windows Explorer! WRONG! For the hundreds of nerds complaining that they don't have access to the file system on their iPads, there are millions of normal people who are delighted by a computer that they can use rather than manage. How much longer can Microsoft keep making a 20th century operating system? What's going to be…
How do you copy a bunch of documents and pictures from and to a USB drive without a filesystem?
I would imagine that Apple's envisions a world of these things being done wirelessly.
What is interesting is that Apple and MS have two totally opposed philosophies in handling the issue of the user not understanding the file system.
Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
Most new computer users find it very hard to remember additional, non intuitive actions like right clicking & context menus I didn't realize this. In fact, if I were asked to guess, I would have answered that most new users would pick up pretty quickly how to use context menus, especially if the context menus had related commands like file manipulation if in Windows Explorer (is it still called that?), or formatting…
Yes but people don't WANT to learn things like this. My mother doesn't want to remember what mouse button to click or that CTRL or ALT is a modifier on this command. I would argue that THIS is what made Apple's OS hang on all those years it was in the severe minority. There is a segment of the population that wants only one mouse button to click, not 3, not 3 plus CTRL or ALT or etc. Apple did end up having to rely h…
This doesn't explain the "invert selection" button. I'm pretty sure that one is indefensible.
Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody
#67The first problem with the article here is that some of the buttons (Move To, Copy To) did not exist previously. They are also extensions of existing functions (Move, Copy) - so concluding that half the UI is covered by buttons that were not used is an inaccurate assumption. Secondly, the actions are being moved from the context menu to the ribbon. Most new computer users find it very hard to remember additional, non…
According to Microsoft's data, more than 85% of the command usage in Explorer is through keyboard shortcuts or context menus. Clearly, it isn't that hard to get used to using context menus and keyboard shortcuts. It seems to me that a lot of people here on HN are simply using this issue to talk about how much better they are at using a computer than the ordinary person, who is apparently quite inept. Unless there is…
This is a classic case of misinterpreting the data - 85% use it because the only way you can copy, without using a context menu or a keyboard shortcut is by holding down Alt and then clicking on the Edit menu.The point is, people use keyboard shortcuts & context menus because they have to today.
This is the danger with reading too much into simple data - just because 85% of the people do X, it doesn't mean that X is good. Do you expect the data to show that people don't copy paste because its not intuitive? No, in most cases they 'have' to learn it, and figure it out by asking a friend, but they don't enjoy the learning process (and indirectly, resent the platform itself).
Everyone who struggled with the concept of right clicking eventually learnt it - the problem is not that right clicking or context menus are impossible to learn. It's that they're not a natural way of interaction, and should be eliminated whenever possible.
You shouldn't have to learn to use a menu to do what you want, especially when 80% of the time you just need 4 actions.
The simplicity of modifiers (tap, double tap, swipe) is what makes touch platforms like iOS very intuitive. A direct, clickable button ensures that novice users can accomplish simple file management tasks by learning a single modifier (the click).
Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
How do you copy a bunch of documents and pictures from and to a USB drive without a filesystem?
I would imagine that Apple's envisions a world of these things being done wirelessly. What is interesting is that Apple and MS have two totally opposed philosophies in handling the issue of the user not understanding the file system.
Well, yes, Apple designs products for rich people in the first world who have always-on fast internet (have you seen the sheer size of Apple point updates?!). Microsoft designs far more inclusive products.
Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
Most new computer users find it very hard to remember additional, non intuitive actions like right clicking & context menus I didn't realize this. In fact, if I were asked to guess, I would have answered that most new users would pick up pretty quickly how to use context menus, especially if the context menus had related commands like file manipulation if in Windows Explorer (is it still called that?), or formatting…
Work in support sometime. It is EXTREMELY common to find users that really don't know about right-click. Or that double-click everything. These are not new users either, they have been using computers for decades. For new users I might agree that they could figure out a right click because everything is new. But for users where everything is familiar ("I've always done it this way"), it gets much harder to break thos…
Re: explorer-- then I probably used the wrong term. I was refering to the program you are using when you are on the desktop, and simply want to copy a file. Mac used to call this the "Finder," I believe.
Now the idea that you actually have more problem with experienced users is interesting. I can see that in myself (damn new microwave!). But I still feel like it's no harder to learn, however, than what a bunch of icons are supposed to represent. But once it's shown, then is it really hard for them?
Seems like the problem is one of discoverability, not complexity.
Re: Microsoft UI has officially entered the realm of self-parody
#70With regards to Microsoft's usage statistics, and the counter-argument, I can't help but think of this:
http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2010/09/counterintuitive-w...
Simple usage statistics aren't especially valuable if you don't look at the overall picture as to why features are used (e.g. who would cut and paste if they understood how to move?). I'm not sure if either side is properly analyzing the available information.