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Fleet, a Lightweight IDE from JetBrains

blog.jetbrains.com

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Re: Fleet, a Lightweight IDE from JetBrains

#301

Post by eklavya »

bearjaws wrote: post #186
wokwokwok wrote: post #10

There’s a real opportunity here for JB. If they’re prepared to give this away for free, and make money off of upselling folk on hosted remote dev envs (or licensing the server side to cloud providers) then this could actually compete with vscode. They basically don’t have any other product that is competitive with vscode. …but, I’m skeptical they’re willing to make the jump to freemium based on their other SAS produc…

I love VS code, but insisting that its parsing is even nearly as good as anything from Jetbrains is laughable. Working with Rust in VS code is no where near as good as IntelliJ for example, and their Javascript `intellisense` is best in class.

Having used IntelliJ for a long time I would agree in all cases except rust and flutter. Flutter IntelliJ is not bad but rust analyser in vs code is miles ahead of IntelliJ rust.

Re: Fleet, a Lightweight IDE from JetBrains

#302

Post by technobabbler »

native_samples wrote: post #288
technobabbler wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does "DOM as editor" mean? As in the HTML DOM and manipulating it directly? How is that an editor/IDE? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. My only experience with Java is as an user, and it's never been positive. Whether it's the applets of yore or the modern Java apps, there's always performance, memory, JRE issues and terrible, second-rate UIs. Maybe the language itself is beautiful, I wouldn't know, but the user…

Second rate UI? The IntelliJ UI is pretty great, it's very well optimized and has a billion features. I don't think any new IDE would look significantly different. There are only so many ways to do buttons, scroll bars, trees and editors.

I don't actually mean IntelliJ in particular, but Java having its own UI kit. Nothing looks or feels native on any platform. I've heard something about a graphical widget kit that emulates native on Java, but as far as I can tell IntelliJ (and most Java apps I've seen) don't use it.

Though since you mentioned IntelliJ, I find its UI pretty hectic too, a hodgepodge of 90s-style MDI and modern tabs and split panes. Some of the most common patterns (going between the terminal, code editor, debugger, git, npm, and DB browser) requires navigating between like seven different places in no logical arrangement.

Why is npm a tab bar in the lower left, the actual npm list in a pane above it, git/terminal debugger on the bottom, the code editor in the upper right, the db browser in the upper right sidebar (which isn't even visible by default), the db query itself in a tab mixed with the code editor, the debugger output in the bottom but the button to start it in the top toolbar...

I can never find the features easily because I don't know which pane or tab group it's supposed to be in. In something like VScode, the features are categorized in a hierarchy and arranged in layers in the left sidebar in a sensical drill-down pattern. Xcode is visually cleaner too.

It's not just about the presentation of UI widgets (scroll bars, etc.) but how they're arranged in terms of information architecture, discoverability, cognitive load, diving down, etc. Everything is a "module" of equal value competing for screen real estate and together it is pretty visually overwhelming, especially to new users. More important things like the terminal or debugger shouldn't have the same level of prominence as the less important things (profiler, R jobs). Not all features get used with the same frequency, or in the same contexts, but IntelliJ organizes them all pretty flat.

That's just me, though. It's like a lesser version of the MS Office "toolbars vs ribbon" debate. If Jetbrains actually tried to overhaul their UX, they'd probably see a mass exodus of wizened old beards.

Re: Fleet, a Lightweight IDE from JetBrains

#303

Post by willangley »

I'm excited to see this and signed up for the preview. It's just in time for M1 Pro MacBooks. I spent hours stuck on the very first thing I tried coding on my new laptop because of a missing linux-aarch64 binary wheel on PyPI and had to figure out what was happening and how to build it from source.

If this is priced close to JetBrains' other products and works decently well I could see myself signing up for it. The subscription would pay for itself in one averted experience like this a year :P

Re: Fleet, a Lightweight IDE from JetBrains

#304

Post by Cu3PO42 »

y4mi wrote: post #244
LeonM wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've used Jetbrains products for a long time, both as a student, and later professionally. Jetbrains products are free for students, and paid for professional use. In my opinion, the pricing of the product is spot on. My company pays about ~200 euro per seat per year, which is a good price for the quality tooling you get. In my experience, VSCode is not competitive with Jetbrains products. Their products come with su…

> Jetbrains products are free for students, and paid for professional use. In my opinion, the pricing of the product is spot on. My company pays about ~200 euro per seat per year, which is a good price for the quality tooling you get. well, they're in violation of the licence if thats true. The 150€/250€ licence is for private people, companies have to pay 500€/650€. /edit: i guess non of the people that are respondi…

You're missing something: larger companies can negotiate significant discounts when they buy in bulk. This applies even more for a product with negligible marginal cost.

Re: Fleet, a Lightweight IDE from JetBrains

#305

Post by ska »

pjmlp wrote: post #198
simion314 wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But similarly my nano feels faster then youur VS setup, the important part is if how productive you are. Sometimes is a good idea to see what makes your IDE or plugins slow, for web dev you can probably improve your IDE performance but telling it to ignore certain files and folders like the node_modules folder or the .min.js files. Though the conclusion is that ReSharper slowness and price is worth it because Microso…

Actually the conclusion is that most people that advocate for Resharper aren't aware of VS Rosylin plugins, and most of them are like those that buy SLRs, but actually only need the features of a compact camera, but it feels good to carry that SLR around.

> Actually the conclusion is ...

Don't forget the time component. A lot of c# shops standardized on Visual Studio with resharper when a lot of alternatives either didn't exist or were notably worse (at least in function; resharper was always terribly slow iirc)

Re: Fleet, a Lightweight IDE from JetBrains

#306

Post by jatone »

KronisLV wrote: post #291
jatone wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

thats funny I've always found jetbrains IDE to be error ridden annoyances where I end up spending more time dealing with problems the IDE has caused than developing software.

> I've always found jetbrains IDE to be error ridden annoyances where I end up spending more time dealing with problems the IDE has caused than developing software. My personal experience has been pretty much the opposite of this, as someone that uses Java almost every day and other languages occasionally (.NET, Python, PHP, Ruby, JS/TS, SQL, a little bit of Go). If i had to rank all of the IDEs that i've used from t…

see this might be the difference I don't distinguish between intellij and its various spin offs. Most of my interactions with its ecosystem have been through Android Studio.

and it was so horrible I won't touch the others for any length of time. I also havent developed in java for over a decade until recently (for work, only touch java if you pay me).

Re: Fleet, a Lightweight IDE from JetBrains

#307

Post by eyelidlessness »

glun wrote: post #228

Whenever I try to use something other than IntelliJ (generally VS Code) I'm always struck by how awful the code completion and auto-imports are. I really hope we can get a lightweight editor with those two functions working properly. However, I don't see how you can do either of those features well without a lot of indexing of the codebase. And indexing is a major reason why IntelliJ so so clunky.

I came to VSCode from TextMate, so my expectations were minimal, but I can’t think of anything more to wish for from its completion and auto-imports. I’m generally using it for TypeScript which is probably its strongest use case. But even untyped JavaScript is pretty good: local type inference is alright, JSDoc types nearly on par with TS, automatic type acquisition for dependencies is better than manual installation in TS.

That said, it’s been years since I tried IntelliJ. Am I missing some significant productivity improvement, for TS/JS development?

Re: Fleet, a Lightweight IDE from JetBrains

#308

Post by BozeWolf »

fivea wrote: post #239
glun wrote: post #228

Whenever I try to use something other than IntelliJ (generally VS Code) I'm always struck by how awful the code completion and auto-imports are. I really hope we can get a lightweight editor with those two functions working properly. However, I don't see how you can do either of those features well without a lot of indexing of the codebase. And indexing is a major reason why IntelliJ so so clunky.

Even though I wouldn't classify it as "awful", I do agree with the sentiment. Whenever I use Clion, I feel I need to have vscode also on the same project to mitigate the shortcomings of it's code completion and even search. Clion's support for CMake is particularly enfuriating, with it's propensity to actively replate a target's name with filenames, even if they do not match in caps, which makes absolutely no sense a…

Counter argument, I tried c/cpp/cmake development in vscode, but got so fed up with breaking plugins. Configuring… fixing new config options for plugins… Or spell checkersuggesting to rename functions i call… or duplicate shortcuts from plugins…

That I bought clion and got stuff up and running for the biggest part in minutes. I am a looong time pycharm user though. Cmake integration is great for my projects. Embedded mostly.

IDE’s are very personal tools. Im an ide guy, always have been. Do use vscode occasionally though, it is great to test new prpgramming languages, or open big files pycharm chokes on.

Re: Fleet, a Lightweight IDE from JetBrains

#309

Post by wpietri »

jatone wrote: post #297
wpietri wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, if you just want a text editor and not an IDE, you probably shouldn't be using an IDE. Those things that are "just not" helpful to you are very helpful to others. Personally, I very much want an actual IDE for a lot of my work. So I'm happy to buy a fast machine with plenty of RAM and then give the IDE a good chunk of it. But I'm glad they're making Fleet for folks with other preferences, and I'm sure I'll be u…

no I want my IDE to be functional without destroying my system performance or fucking up my codebase. jet brains is a massive offender here. it doesn't need to be. I have a giant machine ~128GB of RAM and 24 cores. the fact I have to tune my IDE is insane. the not helpful issues with jetbrains are when it crashes, slows down my system, prevents me from modifying files because reasons, modifies my build configurations…

That's just very different than my experience. Across a number of years and a few different major languages, from coding solo to working with teams. The only tuning I have to do is to tell it that using more RAM is ok. I'm sorry you're having those problems, and if you ever want to dig in on fixing them, drop me a line. But please understand it's pretty far off the median experience.

Re: Fleet, a Lightweight IDE from JetBrains

#310

Post by hinkley »

tdrdt wrote: post #64

To me it sounds like this is used to test a rewrite of all their IDEs because it is written from scratch. I can imagine if this becomes a succes they will update all their IDEs or use Fleet as the new platform.

Often, there are one or two voices inside of a company that have the same complaints as customers, but they can't get any traction on the issue until users complain about it. I've been on several projects where we coached or were coached about asking our boss to ask their boss for something with a specific keyword that they could use for leverage.

In college, I left my ATM card in a machine and the person behind me pulled out the max daily limit on my account. I don't think the cops were able to ID him off of the grainy back-lit video from the machine. This was a new model of ATM that had worse ergonomics than the previous one. Turns out someone at the bank already hated these machines, and he arranged to refund me the lost money (which I'm fairly sure now he would have had to do anyway) in exchange for a signed complaint that he could add to his evidence trove.

"People are dumb. A person is smart." also applies to companies.

The thing is that if you're too rude when you make a complaint, you make bad evidence. If you're too polite, the same is also true. "We should fix this because this totally happy customer said we should" might work once in a while but it's easier to sell your boss on "customers are pissed about X which is also pissing me off." I struggle to find the right line between the two when I have to call customer support. Since I don't usually like to call CS at all, when I do it's usually because I'm pretty spun up.

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