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Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

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Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#271

Post by asoneth »

latexr wrote: post #240
NoboruWataya wrote: post #103

It's a depressing situation, particularly knowing that Firefox is pretty much kept alive at Google's whim. It makes one seriously wonder whether it is feasible at all to maintain an independent open-source web browser in 2021. People tend to blame Mozilla's management and I'm sure there have been management failures but I'm not sure what they could do to make Firefox a thriving, independent, sustainable browser. It s…

> It seems that the market niche of tech-capable people who value privacy and customisation over a simplified UX is not capable of sustaining Firefox on its own. Perhaps they could care for the automation niche. There are thriving communities on macOS who are deeply into automation, and virtually no one uses Firefox. The ones who do stop because Firefox’s AppleScript support is non-existent, while Chromium’s (and thu…

If they're going to be paying developers to do it they'd need an expectation of a stronger ROI than their other efforts. I wonder if the size of the macOS automation community is large enough to make much of an impact on their market share. Would you estimate they'd gain hundreds of users? Thousands? Tens-of-thousands?

If they're relying on volunteers then they'd need a few folks with the right set of skills and a motivation to scratch that itch. I would personally love to see better AppleScript support in Firefox, but I won't judge anyone else for not stepping up if I don't have the inclination to either.

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#272

Post by Causality1 »

I can attribute this decline to various factors:

In my opinion the author missed a large one: Mozilla chose to chase after Chrome's market share instead of focusing on the reasons people liked Firefox. For years there were a ton of things that made Firefox objectively more powerful for a skilled user than Chrome. Mozilla has burned all of them to the ground.

They could have kept us, the ten percent. Instead they chased the 50% and they will end up with nothing at all. When they write the obituary for Firefox, it will begin with the day they decided if Chrome does something then they have to do it as well. Personally I'd peg the terminal diagnosis for June 21st 2011.

Mozilla should be comparing their user share to their user demographics. When Firefox had thirty percent of the market its users were talking about all the amazing things they could make Firefox do that other browsers couldn't. In 2021 Firefox users pretty much just talk about getting off on Google not knowing what they're up to. What's that get Mozilla? 3.29%. So why is Mozilla hell-bent on the same attitude and pattern of behavior that's been ruining them for a decade?

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#273

Post by shakna »

seanw444 wrote: post #259
shakna wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it would be far less hostility if we as users got access to the information ourselves. Go to about:telemetry There are several pages detailing all of that information, and you can also get all of that data as the JSON payload if you want to munge and display it yourself.

That gave me a laugh. Had no idea this existed, thanks.

For those who may be curious, Firefox still lists all their metapages [0], which makes exploring under the hood pretty easy.

[0] about:about

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#274

Post by eitland »

lvncelot wrote: post #141
NoboruWataya wrote: post #103

It's a depressing situation, particularly knowing that Firefox is pretty much kept alive at Google's whim. It makes one seriously wonder whether it is feasible at all to maintain an independent open-source web browser in 2021. People tend to blame Mozilla's management and I'm sure there have been management failures but I'm not sure what they could do to make Firefox a thriving, independent, sustainable browser. It s…

What's worse, I think it's extremely difficult, if not impossible, for another project to start from either a fork or from nothing and provide an alternative, as developing a browser (with its own rendering engine) is extremely complicated, comparable to an operating system.

I've been suggesting someone starts maintaining a set of patches to Firefox and building based on them.

Start by fixing low-hanging frukt (the tab-strip api, make real customizability for the UI possible again) and build momentum from there.

I'm ready to pay a bit for what is one of my most important tools, and I think we all should think about it that way.

Just don't start growth hacking me or anything sleazy and I'm also your free billboard on HN and elsewhere.

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#275

Post by kertoip_1 »

I'm Firefox user, but those arguments are ridiculous for me, it almost sounds like conspiracy theory. You just keep convincing people to use software not because it's better, but because of some blurry ideological reasons.

I keep reading articles like that on tech-related websites and they all miss the point which is: if Chrome-based browsers one day manage to gain 100% market share, what will it change if it is open source? What stops anyone from just forking that browser if Google makes anything wrong with it? And what did Google do with browsers so far, that we hate it?

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#276

Post by gjsman-1000 »

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #268
samwillis wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. In many ways Apple's anti-competitive behaviour on iOS/iPadOS is a blessing. It's one of the few things that keep Chromium's dominance in check. Of course, it's not great that Apple are stifling innovation like this, but consider the alternative: Chromium dominance on all platforms. I think it’s worth noting that (at least I believe) the reason apple limit the usage of other browser engines in iOS isn’t (mostly)…

Another reason is actually security. Remember that Apple doesn't allow other web browser engines in any application. Imagine if an Electron application on iOS just decided to ship with it's entire, own browser engine. We would have super-bloated apps like our desktops, and if a security flaw was found, good luck getting all those apps to update. In a way, Apple knows that allowing other browser engines means: 1. Chro…

The ironic part of this is that if Apple allowed alternative browser engines, I guarantee you it is only a matter of time before you see Electron apps bringing their own browser engines with them to iOS. And not long after before Hacker News is screaming and moaning about it (like they do for Electron on desktop) and begging for Apple to stop it.

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#277

Post by piva00 »

gjvc wrote: post #52
parhamn wrote: post #37

I think part of this discussion needs to be that Firefox, while open source, doesn't provide footing for the community to build browser forks the way Chromium does. This sort of open usage, ironically, feels very fitting to the spirit of Firefox, but they're not even close to Chrom(e|ium). I've been building a browser full time the past year+ (synth.app) and FF core wasn't really even an option. They've done very lit…

> ... weird chromium only behaviors that websites rely on these days to do things (and egregiously so if they detect an agent remotely resembling chrome). This sounds like the IE6 disaster all over again.

Yup, as someone who worked on fixing issues with IE5/IE6/IE7 behaviours I definitely feel the slow burning fire of Chrome repeating that whole saga once again. And probably in a much more painful way given the explosive growth of the internet and browsers since the early 2000s (I started working with web dev around 2005).

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#278

Post by dralley »

zesterer wrote: post #80
parhamn wrote: post #37

I think part of this discussion needs to be that Firefox, while open source, doesn't provide footing for the community to build browser forks the way Chromium does. This sort of open usage, ironically, feels very fitting to the spirit of Firefox, but they're not even close to Chrom(e|ium). I've been building a browser full time the past year+ (synth.app) and FF core wasn't really even an option. They've done very lit…

> Firefox, while open source, doesn't provide footing for the community to build browser forks Say hello to https://servo.org/ .

Servo wasn't a fork, nor was it meaningfully a "community" project - sure there were community contributors (it was a fun project to hack on) but most of the meaty work was being done by Mozilla employees.

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#279

Post by NoGravitas »

yutijke wrote: post #10

I feel the article misses how Firefox's inability to get a foothold on the mobile platform contributed to its decline. There are more people today using web browsers via mobile then desktop. In many poorer countries the first and only access to the open internet for the people is through chrome on Android. I don't blame Mozilla for this though since they did not have a monopoly on a platform to capitalize on unlike t…

Firefox on Android is absolutely excellent these days, but it still shows how Mozilla is really hesitant to embrace it. It's the only mobile browser with really adequate ad-blocking, thanks to extension support. There are a lot of other extensions which are really useful on mobile that aren't on the recommended list, though. I can understand why they restrict extensions (some don't have a viable UI for mobile or would require significant changes), but I recently went through the hoops to install non-approved extensions, and having Privacy Redirect and Stylus are life-changers.

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#280

Post by ineedasername »

bool3max wrote: post #124
NoboruWataya wrote: post #103

It's a depressing situation, particularly knowing that Firefox is pretty much kept alive at Google's whim. It makes one seriously wonder whether it is feasible at all to maintain an independent open-source web browser in 2021. People tend to blame Mozilla's management and I'm sure there have been management failures but I'm not sure what they could do to make Firefox a thriving, independent, sustainable browser. It s…

I have to strongly agree with your last point - I also never understood the massive hard-on that the technical user-base has against useful telemetry. Perhaps it's just the loud minority, but to me it seems that most of them have never worked on an user-facing product (for-profit or not). Yes, users can themselves explicitly communicate feedback regarding the product or its features, and no, most of them don't do tha…

In general for applications, I usually say no to telemetry because I don't know exactly what data is being captured and how much they're stretching the truth on what it will be used for.
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