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Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

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Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#71

Post by parhamn »

gjvc wrote: post #52
parhamn wrote: post #37

I think part of this discussion needs to be that Firefox, while open source, doesn't provide footing for the community to build browser forks the way Chromium does. This sort of open usage, ironically, feels very fitting to the spirit of Firefox, but they're not even close to Chrom(e|ium). I've been building a browser full time the past year+ (synth.app) and FF core wasn't really even an option. They've done very lit…

> ... weird chromium only behaviors that websites rely on these days to do things (and egregiously so if they detect an agent remotely resembling chrome). This sounds like the IE6 disaster all over again.

oh man. I need to find some time to write about how bad it is.

The gnarliness spans the whole stack. From weird java-applet like API escalation behavior if chrome is detected (e.g. Google properties feature gate a ton around this) to how there is not even a clear way to get a DRM license for a custom browser without waiting for Google indefinitely [1].

Here's a challenge: fire up a chromium fork and get it to run a relaxed DRM website like Netflix. If you get that far now try loading HBOMax with their fingerprinting/DRM protection on top. I'm not even sure it'd be possible in FF (at least without some DRM piggy backing if there isn't one).

[1] https://blog.samuelmaddock.com/posts/google-widevine-blocked...

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#73

Post by netizen-936824 »

samwillis wrote: post #65

Firefox is compromised by the fact it’s core active users are also its largest liability. It’s the innovators dilemma. They want it to (more or less) stay the same and not move forward and make changes to compete with Chrome. Whereas for them to achieve a larger market share it needs a radical overhaul. Really what Mozilla need to do is build a “new browser” called something different and put their weight behind that…

This sounds like a broad generalization. I have been a Firefox user for many years and I'm happy to see it compete with updates. I like seeing it change.

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#74

Post by zesterer »

samwillis wrote: post #65

Firefox is compromised by the fact it’s core active users are also its largest liability. It’s the innovators dilemma. They want it to (more or less) stay the same and not move forward and make changes to compete with Chrome. Whereas for them to achieve a larger market share it needs a radical overhaul. Really what Mozilla need to do is build a “new browser” called something different and put their weight behind that…

> They want it to (not or less) stay the same and not move forward

I don't think this is true at all. Anecdotally, a lot of Firefox users have been very receptive towards recent changes. Quantum was a huge success and I know very few people that miss the old Firefox with all of its jank.

> Mozilla need to follow suit in order to survive, rip that rendering engine out, build a new browser and a “browser toolkit” to let other people build their own

This is precisely what Servo is: https://servo.org/. Mozilla know what they're doing.

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#75

Post by alex_smart »

traveler01 wrote: post #49
alex_smart wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firefox just pushed yet another pointless UI change six months ago. People using their software just to go about with their lives don't like pointless UI changes.

This. I don't want to have my family asking to teach them how to use the browser everytime Mozilla decides to do a pointless UI change. Chrome pretty much barely changes where things are and how things behave and it's a pretty fast browser. If you want to fix Firefox go complain with their management.

>If you want to fix Firefox go complain with their management.

Despite being an open source project, Firefox management seems to be much less in touch with and responsive to their user's feedback compared to other browsers. As an example, both Safari and Firefox had the same bad idea at about the same time - converting tabs into floating buttons (although in the case of Safari the bad at least served a useful purpose: increasing vertical real estate for the browser). Both got negative feedback. The difference? Firefox management dug their heels deeper and told their users, "suck it up, this is the future of web browsing", whereas Apple listened to the feedback and killed the bad idea during the beta itself.

Yet another example: killing off single site browsing or progressive web apps.

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#76

Post by sime2009 »

resonious wrote: post #53

I used to hold the same opinion: Google controls the world because everything is Blink/Chromium based! Must use Firefox to protest! Then I looked closer look at the history of Chromium and Blink. The reality is that a lot of the other "Chromium-based" browsers actually only use the Blink renderer. They don't use many (if any) other Chromium components other than probably V8. In ancient times, Blink itself was a fork…

True. People forgot that Microsoft had been developing its own browser for years before they moved to Chromium. That team and expertise didn't just disappear. They've been doing significant work in that code base. See https://twitter.com/ericlaw/status/1329200077517295618 from a year ago. Having that technical power does give them quite a lot of control over the code base which can help balance the political power here.

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#77

Post by nicoburns »

_abox wrote: post #26
yutijke wrote: post #10

I feel the article misses how Firefox's inability to get a foothold on the mobile platform contributed to its decline. There are more people today using web browsers via mobile then desktop. In many poorer countries the first and only access to the open internet for the people is through chrome on Android. I don't blame Mozilla for this though since they did not have a monopoly on a platform to capitalize on unlike t…

I use Firefox on Android, it works pretty good. Having dark reader and uBlock Origin on mobile is a big plus. But I do hate the lack of configuration options, pull-to-refresh, and their need to 'approve' extensions and in particular not allowing any kind of sideloading of extensions. For this reason I can't use some of the extensions I like (because they won't allow them in the firefox store either). This is in parti…

I believe they've actually implemented pull-to-refresh now.

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#78

Post by rocqua »

Santosh83 wrote: post #63
parhamn wrote: post #37

I think part of this discussion needs to be that Firefox, while open source, doesn't provide footing for the community to build browser forks the way Chromium does. This sort of open usage, ironically, feels very fitting to the spirit of Firefox, but they're not even close to Chrom(e|ium). I've been building a browser full time the past year+ (synth.app) and FF core wasn't really even an option. They've done very lit…

I wonder how difficult would be an open source community project whose explicit aim would be to take the Firefox code base and make it more modular and embeddable, like Chromium? Would it be too much work for a community effort?

Electron, but based on Firefox instead of chrome.

Not the most appealing idea, but an interesting one. Might help move more people to essentially using Firefox.

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#79

Post by Miner49er »

The problem is that the web has gotten way too complicated. We're approaching the point where only trillion dollar companies are producing rendering engines. No open source project will ever likely be able to catch up and compete if Firefox can't.

It's time to consider stopping to try and save the standard web, and start looking at alternatives like Gemini for a non-corporate controlled alternative.

Re: Firefox is the alternative to a Chrome hegemony

#80

Post by zesterer »

parhamn wrote: post #37

I think part of this discussion needs to be that Firefox, while open source, doesn't provide footing for the community to build browser forks the way Chromium does. This sort of open usage, ironically, feels very fitting to the spirit of Firefox, but they're not even close to Chrom(e|ium). I've been building a browser full time the past year+ (synth.app) and FF core wasn't really even an option. They've done very lit…

> Firefox, while open source, doesn't provide footing for the community to build browser forks

Say hello to https://servo.org/.

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