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How to Save a Ski Town

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Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#231

Post by ehnto »

emteycz wrote: post #229
ehnto wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you expecting to have happened? The town to get together and everyone refuses to sell? Like I said it wasn't an ultimatum people were given to sell or keep their town, it didn't just spring on them one day in a town meeting where they could vote to gentrify or not. Some people are going to sell because they're moving on, some people die and their estate sells, it's just going to happen. Over time more of the…

I don't expect anything, I just find the notion of selling without wanting to sell funny.

I guess I'm not sure what your point is then.

Think of a young couple, new kid, want a bigger house in their home town, no longer possible because their wages at the ski lodge don't actually let them afford a home the size they need. They sell their current one and leave. I'm not saying feel sorry for them, just using it as an example.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#232

Post by aahortwwy »

emteycz wrote: post #229
ehnto wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you expecting to have happened? The town to get together and everyone refuses to sell? Like I said it wasn't an ultimatum people were given to sell or keep their town, it didn't just spring on them one day in a town meeting where they could vote to gentrify or not. Some people are going to sell because they're moving on, some people die and their estate sells, it's just going to happen. Over time more of the…

I don't expect anything, I just find the notion of selling without wanting to sell funny.

Some friends in WA sold without wanting to sell.

The market value of their home grew enormously, and with it their property taxes. They live frugally on a low, fixed income and eventually the tax burden grew too much. So yeah, they got a nice capital gain, but they had to move away from the home they bought as newlyweds and raised their family in. It probably would've been better for their children's inheritance if they hadn't sold the house, too.

Shit happens, I suppose.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#233

Post by scythe »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #154
scythe wrote: post #142

>Unchained from their desks, the hordes of newly remote white-collar workers descended upon all the magical mountain towns, and in just one year, the median list price for a home in Crested Butte jumped 40 percent, to $895,000. Rents soared, too—20 to 40 percent in Colorado ski towns like Crested Butte, according to one June 2021 report. The market adjusts if it is correct to adjust, at least probably, according to t…

> I generally support housing construction wherever it's fiscally sound. TFA describes a town where (a) construction is limited by forces beyond the town's control (geography, federal land ownership) and (b) construction (at least of certain kinds of housing) is prevented by existing residents who vote against it. The state of housing construction in Crested Butte does not sound as if it is governed by any sort of no…

So this is a pretty good example of a non-constructive response created by polarization. Obviously we are only interested in the returns to modifying (b) under the constraints of (a). Obviously markets can price this kind of thing.

But no, let's obsess over any technicality in a critique of our ideology (in your case, the deregulation position) until the Sun explodes.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#234

Post by SwagGrocery »

asdff wrote: post #190
drewpc wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My partner has lived in Crested Butte for 18 years and I just came back from a weekend there. Restaurant prices are already high and each one has "help wanted" signs out front because nobody can work for minimum wage and not even afford to live there. Raising prices of a $20 cocktail to $25 does not allow the restaurant to pay hourly, local workers enough money to afford a house that's over $800k or rent that's over…

Resort towns should be considered more like cruise ships. I wouldn't expect a deckhand to afford a condo on a oceanliner, but if their labor is needed it seems its not an issue for the employer to provide housing. Plenty of industries provide housing for their workers. If housing is such an issue for labor to cover itself, capital should just pay for what its labor requires to exist. Somehow along the line we went fr…

This is where it's headed. The complete Disney-ification of ski towns. 2 or 3 mega resort companies will control the entire economy surrounding the resort: hotels, restaurants, spas, theaters, etc. Some of the amenities will operate at a loss, but their presence will push up the value of the higher margin amenities.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#235

Post by chiefalchemist »

drewpc wrote: post #125
chiefalchemist wrote: post #54

Simple question: Why can't the restaurants and such raise prices? And thus pay?? The non-locals drove up the price of housing and were still ready, willing, and able to pay. Why should that cycle stop there?

My partner has lived in Crested Butte for 18 years and I just came back from a weekend there. Restaurant prices are already high and each one has "help wanted" signs out front because nobody can work for minimum wage and not even afford to live there. Raising prices of a $20 cocktail to $25 does not allow the restaurant to pay hourly, local workers enough money to afford a house that's over $800k or rent that's over…

But why don't the numbers add up is my question. There is a want, a need in the market and that - as it does for housing - drives price.

In fact, I bet if "amenities" went up in price the cost of housing (read: demand) would fall.

That's how it works, unless someone or something has their thumb on the scale.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#236

Post by unionpivo »

sumedh wrote: post #209
dustintrex wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your typical Swiss ski resort village is stacked full of multilevel apartments, cleverly disguised as rustic chalets: https://chalet.myswitzerland.com/holiday-rentals/grindelwald... Superior public transport (quite a few villages ban cars entirely), much higher wages and ruthless exploitation of immigrant labor are also factors though.

> exploitation of immigrant labor are also factors though. I thought Switzerland does not have lot of immigration.

There are a lot of people from balkans working there for a few years or decades before returning home.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#237

Post by dkarp »

rsync wrote: post #129
hamolton wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Purg, Wolf Creek, & Loveland haven't had big lines any times I've been there. My mother said Los Alamos, Santa Fe, & Taos lift lines are far better now on powder days than when she grew up thanks to more chairs on lifts + high speed lifts.

Wolf Creek sucks. You'd hate it there .

Thanks, added to my "do not miss" list!

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#238

Post by ghaff »

kortilla wrote: post #132
ghaff wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>IMO I think the only solution is to create more mountain towns and ski resorts. Almost impossible given environmental constraints. (Whether one agrees or disagrees.) Even expanding existing resorts is tough. And it's not clear the economics are there given demographics even leaving aside any climate change factors. ADDED: More rural towns with very limited facilities may be possible given Starlink, etc. But they're…

I grew up in the Rockies in the Wyoming/Montana area. There is absolutely enough open mountain space to open more resorts. There are ski resorts open now that are not doing that well financially. The problem is not the mountain side ski hills, it’s access to the flow of rich people. Ski resorts 2 hours from the Bozeman airport struggle because that’s too inconvenient. The ski towns that suffer from these problems are…

I don't disagree with any of that. Though I'd point out that just because there's lots of open mountain space doesn't mean it would be anything like straightforward to get the permits to develop and operate a destination ski resort there.

But, as you say, a lot of destination ski resorts don't even really have an associated town at all or they have a somewhat distributed sprawl of related properties and they're inconvenient to get to. Even most of the Colorado resorts aren't especially quick to get to from commercial flights. And if you don't have a destination resort (or other) you just have a small rural town that may not have much in the way of jobs in the first place.

While there have actually been more small ski areas created since than I would have expected, it looks as if Deer Valley is the newest major resort from the early 80s--and that's in a town that already existed and already had an associated major ski area.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#239

Post by uptime »

ghaff wrote: post #87
KingMachiavelli wrote: post #86

The problem is pretty simple; the stock of mountain resort towns has not kept up to satisfy demand. Imagine 15 or 20 years ago, a trip to a somewhat remote mountain town had a lot of inconveniences like bad internet, unpredictable weather/travel conditions, etc. In the current year, it's very easy to book an entire trip to Vail/Tahoe in 30 minutes. The amenities and infrastructure are decent making it a viable place…

>IMO I think the only solution is to create more mountain towns and ski resorts. Almost impossible given environmental constraints. (Whether one agrees or disagrees.) Even expanding existing resorts is tough. And it's not clear the economics are there given demographics even leaving aside any climate change factors. ADDED: More rural towns with very limited facilities may be possible given Starlink, etc. But they're…

I’m sure that environmental concerns are a factor, but ski lifts and snowmaking aren’t cheap, there are plenty of reasons why making a new ski area is daunting.

The main environmental constraint I’ve seen is rain in December wiping out all the manufactured snow killing the holiday season. (I am talking about New England so YMMV)

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#240

Post by bluefirebrand »

mthoms wrote: post #124
bluefirebrand wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Canada a lot of our Ski towns are in provincial or federal parks, meaning there will never be significant housing built, to protect the parkland.

Which major Canadian resorts are in parks besides Lake Louise/Sunshine? I know Mt. Tremblant is in a park, but only the mountain itself and not the town for example.

Whistler / Blackcomb are in provincial parks as well I believe.

Whistler village might not be, I can't seem to find firm confirmation of that.

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