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How to Save a Ski Town

outsideonline.com

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Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#121

Post by carabiner »

SwagGrocery wrote: post #39

There are a lot of comments about eliminating investment properties and providing subsidized housing. Why don't we let the market work itself out? Let's see how magical Crested Butte is in a few years with no intervention. I suspect you'll be able to get a nice ski-in/ski-out condo at a significant discount when there are no longer any businesses open in the town.

Unless you wish to dissolve the local governments in these towns, there is no way to do this. It's a constant struggle between monied interests enacting ordinances that allow them to remain monied, and locals trying to keep them at bay.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#122

Post by snowwrestler »

PeterisP wrote: post #24
bobsmooth wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article addresses this. In short, NIMBYism from second and third home owners makes this difficult.

That's interesting; where I'm from, people only get votes at one municipality (I they qualify for multiple, they choose one as the primary residence), so any people with secondary homes for vacations or rentals are automatically outvoted by the actual residents in local elections.

Actual residents may be concerned about pissing off the 2nd and 3rd home owners, who can be quite vocal even if they don’t have a vote. Locals depend on them for revenue, and might know them personally and like them. This is covered somewhat in the Outside article.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#123

Post by chrissnell »

I lived in Park City, UT throughout much of the 1990s and early 2000s. My family had a home in Telluride, so I’m familiar with the situation there, as well. I have an idea for a solution that I’m surprised was not mentioned. It’s simple: impose a heavy tax on unoccupied vacation homes but offer an exemption for owners who house one local worker on the property year-round. The concept is that the owner of a big vacation home would build a small apartment, perhaps in a basement or in the rear of the home, or even detached, that could house 1-2 locals, and would rent it out for an affordable price. In exchange, the owner gets a break from the hefty tax and they have an on-site theft deterrent.

Back in my ski town days, I had several friends who lived in peoples’ vacation homes as on-site keepers for the absentee owners. They’d keep the property secure, shovel snow if needed, stock the fridge before the owner visited, etc. In exchange, they lived there for free, or at a much-reduced rent.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#124

Post by mthoms »

bluefirebrand wrote: post #21
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #9

Honest question, have any of these ski towns tried allowing the construction of a significant amount of housing? I.e. housing growth that actually scales with the growth in demand? None of the ones I've visited seem at all dense. (Been to Vail, Beaver Creek, Park City, and all over Tahoe.) All the consternation over the housing crisis is maddening to me because it seems like universally (in the US), we're willing to…

In Canada a lot of our Ski towns are in provincial or federal parks, meaning there will never be significant housing built, to protect the parkland.

Which major Canadian resorts are in parks besides Lake Louise/Sunshine? I know Mt. Tremblant is in a park, but only the mountain itself and not the town for example.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#125

Post by drewpc »

chiefalchemist wrote: post #54

Simple question: Why can't the restaurants and such raise prices? And thus pay?? The non-locals drove up the price of housing and were still ready, willing, and able to pay. Why should that cycle stop there?

My partner has lived in Crested Butte for 18 years and I just came back from a weekend there. Restaurant prices are already high and each one has "help wanted" signs out front because nobody can work for minimum wage and not even afford to live there. Raising prices of a $20 cocktail to $25 does not allow the restaurant to pay hourly, local workers enough money to afford a house that's over $800k or rent that's over $2k/mo. The numbers just plain don't add up.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#126

Post by teeray »

reducesuffering wrote: post #57
boringg wrote: post #50

One of the biggest problems that is hitting ski towns is the hyper cheap season passes that everyone buys. The model has created a huge surge of demand for people to go skiing in winter which has put pressure on the local ski towns (more short term rental demands, second home buyers) and the resources at ski mountains (aka the insane lines on a good ski day now). It's interesting because it has allowed a lot more peo…

Lift tickets are like 2x what they were 7 years ago. Prices are matching demand, I doubt it's vice versa. Personally, I think social media is the culprit for the increased demand. Previously people in most places barely knew skiing was an accessible thing to do. Now you have mimetic desire from their friends posting glamor shots at the resort for all to see.

Lift ticket prices are designed to make you do the math over a multi-day trip and conclude that it's cheaper to buy the pass

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#127

Post by rsync »

reducesuffering wrote: post #57
boringg wrote: post #50

One of the biggest problems that is hitting ski towns is the hyper cheap season passes that everyone buys. The model has created a huge surge of demand for people to go skiing in winter which has put pressure on the local ski towns (more short term rental demands, second home buyers) and the resources at ski mountains (aka the insane lines on a good ski day now). It's interesting because it has allowed a lot more peo…

Lift tickets are like 2x what they were 7 years ago. Prices are matching demand, I doubt it's vice versa. Personally, I think social media is the culprit for the increased demand. Previously people in most places barely knew skiing was an accessible thing to do. Now you have mimetic desire from their friends posting glamor shots at the resort for all to see.

"Lift tickets are like 2x what they were 7 years ago. Prices are matching demand, I doubt it's vice versa."

No, there is an intentional shift from a pay-per-use revenue model to a flat-rate "subscription" revenue model.

You are correct - daily rates for walk-up ticket purchases have exploded.

This isn't due to relatively increased demand, however - it is to encourage consumers to adopt the new "pass" revenue model.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#128

Post by mthoms »

nradov wrote: post #83
Swizec wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You see the problem is one of incentives. New people want more housing but can’t vote because they aren’t residents. Old people want high real estate prices and can vote because they’re residents or own property. Guess who wins when it’s time for local political leadership to decide on important issues. Now if housing wasn’t considered an investment and prices were kept flat somehow, that would solve the nimby proble…

If you actually talk to the existing homeowners you'll find that they're more concerned about maintaining a certain lifestyle than real estate values.

I'm not so sure about that. I think that it's just kind of taboo to admit that property value is important.

Granted, I don't think it's their only motivation. Obviously, lifestyle is a big factor for these people too.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#129

Post by rsync »

hamolton wrote: post #110
ragnot wrote: post #3

With seasons seemingly getting shorter and/or worse (due to what I assume to be global warming) and the lines just getting absolutely ridiculous [1], I think I've accepted the fact that skiing/snowboarding is going to be a different experience for my kids. That experience probably won't be at a traditional mountain like Killington, Vail, etc. The lines will be too long, too expensive, just overall it will suck. Hones…

Purg, Wolf Creek, & Loveland haven't had big lines any times I've been there. My mother said Los Alamos, Santa Fe, & Taos lift lines are far better now on powder days than when she grew up thanks to more chairs on lifts + high speed lifts.

Wolf Creek sucks.

You'd hate it there.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#130

Post by davidw »

zz865 wrote: post #5

I quite like the rules in the Tirol - you can only own property if you live there. No second homes, no big hotels, no renting out houses. Just small owner operated hotels and locals.

You couldn't build most buildings in Tirol in the US due to zoning restrictions. When we lived in Innsbruck, we had an apartment with no parking spot. Here in Bend, there is tons of parking, because people regard automobile storage as more important than places for people to live.
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