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How to Save a Ski Town

outsideonline.com

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Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#161

Post by farnsworth »

grecy wrote: post #131
ragnot wrote: post #3

With seasons seemingly getting shorter and/or worse (due to what I assume to be global warming) and the lines just getting absolutely ridiculous [1], I think I've accepted the fact that skiing/snowboarding is going to be a different experience for my kids. That experience probably won't be at a traditional mountain like Killington, Vail, etc. The lines will be too long, too expensive, just overall it will suck. Hones…

> and the lines just getting absolutely ridiculous Leave the US. I worked at a mountain in the US where it was quite normal to have a line from 30 minutes before opening until after closing. I would load passengers on every single chair, all day, every day. I moved up to Canada. It was quite common to go 15-20 minutes without a single person getting on my lift. I regularly ski runs and don't see a single person for t…

Where in Canada? Not Whistler...

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#163

Post by shuckles »

nitrogen wrote: post #137
lbarrow wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the real "market" solution here would be to remove the ability of both out-of-town owners and locals to block new housing development. The article cites an example of a 200+ unit development in Brush Creek that was effectively vetoed by local NIMBYs; this in an area where only 800 people voted in the main Crested Butte elections.

The core tenet of democracy is that local inhabitants make local decisions. Doing otherwise is... I don't know what, but it's anti-democratic. If a small mountain town doesn't want outside investors to blow up the place, they have the right to make that choice.

Democracy is not prescriptive about who has a stake, and in fact the trend has been over time to broaden the definition of "voter" or "stakeholder".

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#164

Post by _nalply »

zz865 wrote: post #5

I quite like the rules in the Tirol - you can only own property if you live there. No second homes, no big hotels, no renting out houses. Just small owner operated hotels and locals.

A similar rule is valid in Switzerland. People voted on it and the mountain cantons still keep grumbling but it's neccessary, I am afraid. A few years ago I went to Nendaz the autumn, a ski station in Valais. Chalets with closed shutters everywhere and few people on the streets. That was a bit sad.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#165

Post by adrianN »

elevenoh wrote: post #162
adrianN wrote: post #140

Climate change will probably kill a lot of ski towns in the next few decades.

source?

Have you tried googling yourself? For example https://www.climate.gov/news-features/climate-and/climate-sk...

"Wobus, Small, and their coauthors simulated natural snow accumulation at 247 winter recreation destinations across the CONUS. They incorporated five climate models and two emission scenarios: RCP4.5 (moderate emissions) and RCP8.5 (high emissions). In this as in other studies, high-emission scenarios present more worrisome forecasts than moderate-emission scenarios, especially toward the end of the century.

Under both scenarios, winter season length could be cut short by more than half in some locations as soon as 2050. Shorter ski seasons “could result in millions to tens of millions of foregone recreational visits annually by 2050, with an annual monetized impact of hundreds of millions of dollars.”"

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#166

Post by asdff »

KingMachiavelli wrote: post #86

The problem is pretty simple; the stock of mountain resort towns has not kept up to satisfy demand. Imagine 15 or 20 years ago, a trip to a somewhat remote mountain town had a lot of inconveniences like bad internet, unpredictable weather/travel conditions, etc. In the current year, it's very easy to book an entire trip to Vail/Tahoe in 30 minutes. The amenities and infrastructure are decent making it a viable place…

>IMO I think the only solution is to create more mountain towns and ski resorts

Not a great solution. The mountains are sensitive ecology, with poor access for the most part, and even the big mountain towns that do exist are under constant threat of going up in smoke in the summer.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#167

Post by zwirbl »

SmellTheGlove wrote: post #157
zz865 wrote: post #5

I quite like the rules in the Tirol - you can only own property if you live there. No second homes, no big hotels, no renting out houses. Just small owner operated hotels and locals.

What happens if you live there, and then you don't? Are you forced to sell? I don't have a house in a mountain resort area, but I do have one by the beach (not on it, but 5 minutes walking) in a town/area that gets significant summer tourist traffic. I have it because that's where I lived for a decade, but pre-COVID, I moved to the bay area for career reasons. I plan to live in it again one day, so I'd hate to have t…

While this is an edge case for most people, you are allowed to keep it, rent it out, whatever. The regulation doesn't work that well, as there are some loopholes and there are still significant numbers of mostly uninhabited second homes.

A lot of places in the Tirol have issues with affordable housing for workers while at the same time new hotels are being built and existing hotels expanded, increasing the demand for affordable housing by increasing the demand for workers.

There is also a small workforce crisis going on since covid, as a lot of people lost their jobs in the pandemic (hotels and restaurants closed) when lots of workers left the sector and many of the seasonal workers are not returning.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#168

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

Schiendelman wrote: post #77
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damn. Should have changed so that only residents get a vote.

Nobody should get a vote. Residents are the worst about opposing more housing. The ONLY constitutional basis for getting a say over how much housing your neighbor builds is excluding Black people (see the appellate ruling, Ambler Realty v City of Euclid). All zoning in the United States is based on the power of that ruling to keep Black people out.

Wierd. While I don't disagree with you that one of the primary uses of zoning has been racial discrimination and segregation, Ambler v. Euclid was about industrial land use in the context of otherwise residential property. The decision may indeed have to led to an expansion in the use of zoning for racist purposes, but it was not in and of itself about such a purpose.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#169

Post by asdff »

fragmede wrote: post #155
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem described in this article is not a shortage of housing for those who want 2nd homes in places like Crested Butte (although that may well be a problem of its own). The problem being described is the infeasability of the people who work in these towns to be able to live there. You can double or triple the number of mountain resort towns, and perhaps that would ease the "challenge" of being able to afford a…

By bringing down the price of a 2nd home in a mountain resort town, the locals can also more easily afford to live in one. That is, if it were easy to magically create more mountain towns, without other effects on supply and demand.

Even if you owned the land already, price of construction being what it is in the western US, the home will be several hundred thousand dollars. That's out of reach to a lift operator making $12/hr.

Re: How to Save a Ski Town

#170

Post by zwirbl »

davidw wrote: post #130
zz865 wrote: post #5

I quite like the rules in the Tirol - you can only own property if you live there. No second homes, no big hotels, no renting out houses. Just small owner operated hotels and locals.

You couldn't build most buildings in Tirol in the US due to zoning restrictions. When we lived in Innsbruck, we had an apartment with no parking spot. Here in Bend, there is tons of parking, because people regard automobile storage as more important than places for people to live.

And still rents and apartment prices are exploding in Innsbruck. Even couples that broke up keep living together for months because the affordable housing situation is dire
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