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Bank transfers as a payment method

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Re: Bank transfers as a payment method

#171

Post by Ekaros »

pjerem wrote: post #68
hjtkfkfmr wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to article there is a huge amount of SEPA fraud going around because seller receives you banking details. Unauthorized direct debit maybe?

The point is that SEPA direct debits are revokable. And by revokable, I mean they are revokable up to 13 months after a transaction. How easily it is depends on your bank : on some banks you need to send a paper letter, on one of my banks, you need to contact the customer service, on the other, reversing a SEPA debit can be done with a simple button on my web interface. SEPA push, whose are, by definition, manual act…

I pay all my bills with push method. Thankfully most of them appear as digital bills in my bank so I just get list and accept them if they look about right. I would never set up direct debit. I don't trust anyone enough for that.

Re: Bank transfers as a payment method

#172

Post by SonicTheSith »

alkonaut wrote: post #163

Another article describing what sounds like science fiction in the US but is established in a lot of the rest of the world? Perhaps I’m misunderstanding the article but when I purchase stuff online the checkout options are “bank transfer”, “credit card” or “invoice”, with the direct bank transfer often being the default choice these days.

Close,

In Germany for example most German stores have the following payment options:

1 You get an invoice and transfer money before shipping 2 lastschrift - vendor pulls money directly from your bank 3 Invoice ( rechnungskauf) - you order, get the product together with an invoice and you got 14days or 30days to pay. 4 Klarna 5 PayPal 6 Credit Card

Amazon for example send me an invoice once a month for all the products I bought.

The Lastschrift 99 percent of the cases does not check authenticity, since banks are required to get you the money back in case of fraud, and since only German banks support Lastschrift, the vendor using lastschrift will be also using a German banks. This making unrecoverable fraud impossible.

And about option 3, package theft is no problem, since DHL FedEx ups, etc. All require a signature and are not allowed to leave the package on the door step. DHL brings the package to the post office or neighbour if your not home. Of course you can designated drop locations as well but they are not allowed to be in plain sight e.g. put it in the shed or something. Bigger problem is here that people use your name with a fake address for purchases, and after the vendor contacts the police they give them your address based on name. Don't know how often it happens but it is not on scale to be scared off.

Oh and in case your login data for a shop gets stolem by scammers, if they change the delivery address German stores require that you reenter payment info to prevent fraud.

Re: Bank transfers as a payment method

#173

Post by Ekaros »

baby wrote: post #59
jacquesm wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in the lucky situation that locally I can transfer instantaneously or nearly so across all of Europe and internationally I use bitcoin for recipients in places where banking fees are too high or the transfers too slow. It's a good combination.

Why not a stablecoin with lower fees?

How do stablecoins make money? That is how do they pay for everything they do? It either has to be fees or some sort of investment. And investments can always crash, thus resulting loss of money...

Re: Bank transfers as a payment method

#174

Post by ErrantX »

anticristi wrote: post #165
ErrantX wrote: post #113

Odd not to touch on Open Banking and PSD2 in Europe; as that is basically the future he is talking about. In essence; financial institutions are legislated to add customer friendly UX and fraud prevention on top of standard bank to bank transfers. It's effectively a set of APIs that orchestrate it all, with things like dynamic linking to the payment and secure authentication rules for anti fraud. The idea is for comm…

Cynical me reads this article as follows: Shit! We promised investors that Stripe will be the sh*t, the Global Payment Network. Now banks and regulators have woken up and we are commoditised in India, Japan and EU. Sure hope FedNow won't follow suit. Sorry VCs. Please exit Stripe before it's too late.

I respect Patrick and his content/judgement. So Hanlon's razor (and I don't mean that in a mean way to Patrick) probably applies.

I assume there is a Stripe echo chamber which might explain the focus (I've read several of his money articles and most of them suffer from an incomplete picture).

Also; I'm not sure Stripe and Open Banking are incompatible. Realistically it eases stripes integrations in the EU (Ive not checked if they are a registered payments provider under the legislation but I assume they must be).

In addition; the thing that springs out of this article is how incompatible we are on a global scale. So there is a market there for them.

In the end, SEPA for all it's faults drove European standardisation. Global legislation on that scale is not gonna happen (it's sort of a shame he didn't draw that conclusion)

Re: Bank transfers as a payment method

#175

Post by ErrantX »

fredkelly wrote: post #166
ErrantX wrote: post #113

Odd not to touch on Open Banking and PSD2 in Europe; as that is basically the future he is talking about. In essence; financial institutions are legislated to add customer friendly UX and fraud prevention on top of standard bank to bank transfers. It's effectively a set of APIs that orchestrate it all, with things like dynamic linking to the payment and secure authentication rules for anti fraud. The idea is for comm…

exactly. A2A payments are already here in the UK with Open Banking rails and VRP/Sweeping coming in the next year (or so).

Post Brexit implementation of VRP has been "fun" but I am pleased to see it nearly there!

Re: Bank transfers as a payment method

#176

Post by zizee »

akdor1154 wrote: post #139
laurencei wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe it is 24 hours for the first, then instant after that.

What a coincidence, a fraud protection scheme that happens to make NPP unsuitable for retail payments right off the bat. Surely unintentional and nothing to do with banks and credit cards wanting to preserve their racket of skimming every purchase in the country.

FWIW what GP wrote is not true of all banks in AU. I have made several transfers to new payids recently and they have all gone through immediately.

Re: Bank transfers as a payment method

#177

Post by realityking »

odiroot wrote: post #153
hyperman1 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd have to agree. Everything in the article about Europe is technically correct, but it is such a small slice of the SEPA payments. The article is so misleading it might as well be wrong. I make payments to the benelux, france, germany, spain and poland, and they go all over the push mechanism. Direct debit is for utilities, and that's about it. For fraud, my bank provides a gui with active agreements. While I can't…

> I make payments to the benelux, france, germany, spain and poland, and they go all over the push mechanism. Direct debit is for utilities, and that's about it. SEPA direct debit is a really really popular thing in Germany. Most utilities prefer (quite understandably) to pull from you instead of waiting for your transfer. Even landlords usually give you an agreement form to pull your rent out of your account. I got…

> I got used to that and recently tried to use a Polish bank account to pay on Amazon and surprisingly it didn't work. Amazon has sent me an automated email with a demand for a (push) transfer, sadly with added fee for the trouble.

That might be a function of Poland not being in the euro zone. AFAIK SEPA Direct Debit is only for transfers in Euro. Even if you tried to use a Euro bank account in Poland, either your bank or Amazon might not have bothered to implement it.

Re: Bank transfers as a payment method

#178

Post by Ekaros »

eisbaw wrote: post #149

Does anybody know of a way to make recurring SEPA (push) payments? My bank requires manual interaction, so I have been looking for a card-to-SEPA gateway - without succes. Reason: Binance offers recurring DCA but with hefty fee for Visa/Mastercard. Binance partnership with AdvCash makes SEPA "zero"-fee possible. AdvCash accepts SEPA, but my bank cannot make recurring SEPA payments.

It depends if your bank supports such. For me it does. I for example have setup my rent to go on same day each month for up to year or more to my landlord. Each of these is separate repeating push payment with same details(message/reference number). And all of them are pre-approved.

Re: Bank transfers as a payment method

#179

Post by _xnmw »

One of the most surprising things about moving to Eastern Europe (being born and raised in Canada and worked in the US) was how much better the payment systems are, from a consumer's perspective. Instant P2P bank-to-bank transfers, confirmed with a 2FA notification on my smartphone, are the default way to pay for everything from my monthly rent to clothing stores (which don't have a credit card terminal) to random ecommerce websites. ACH/Wires and Canada's Interac e-Transfer system seem archaic in comparison, and rampant with fraud (I still get fake texts about e-Transfers to my Canadian voip number weekly, and I still find the US system of wiring money ridiculously slow).

Re: Bank transfers as a payment method

#180

Post by ErrantX »

ErrantX wrote: post #113

Odd not to touch on Open Banking and PSD2 in Europe; as that is basically the future he is talking about. In essence; financial institutions are legislated to add customer friendly UX and fraud prevention on top of standard bank to bank transfers. It's effectively a set of APIs that orchestrate it all, with things like dynamic linking to the payment and secure authentication rules for anti fraud. The idea is for comm…

Follow up; I've looked into UPI a bit more.

It's... Interesting.

I think it's basically solving a very widespread and local use case - which is very low value transactions which are normally done in cash. The AVG value of transactions look to be around $2.

Anything of reasonable value (say $10 still tends to be card-based. This makes sense; fees on cards make anything under $5 cost ineffective, plus you need relatively (to the margin) costly hardware. Margin-based street sellers like those in India can't afford the overhead.

Looking at the implementation; it's interesting there is very little shared about fraud (I couldn't find any specific numbers but based on lots of articles it seems widespread).

Low financial literacy coupled with a system that encourages you to enter your PIN in various interfaces probably makes this something you wouldn't allow high value transactions. Hence the continued dominance of card networks.

If is neat though, although it feels like it's quite a local use case.

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