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Bank transfers as a payment method

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Re: Bank transfers as a payment method

#121

Post by brnt »

jacquesm wrote: post #114
brnt wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

_If_ you get your salary on/before the 25th. Because changing the invoice date is almost never possible, and government agencies are even explicit about that.

If you live that close to zero you have other problems. I would highly recommend reviewing your finances in great detail to figure out how you are going to create a small buffer.

Or, you know, your employer doesn't pay you the 25th.

But explaining anything outside of the typically Dutch circumstances is an unfortunate part of life for the not typically Dutch in the Netherlands. Its a deeply cultural thing, this extreme hang towards conformation to a defacto 'normal'.

FYI: millions of Dutch have these kinds of problems. Look up the working poor, its a big group there. IMHO all native Dutch should be forced a few weeks internship with a budget council service, there are so many incorrect preconceptions about poverty. Including who it hits, which definitely includes people who thought they could never possibly be hit, did their finances right, etc.

Re: Bank transfers as a payment method

#122

Post by Aaronmacaron »

kalleboo wrote: post #28

When discussing Europe, you can't leave out the rise of mobile payments that work similar to India's UPI. For instance, in Sweden, "Swish"[0] has quickly taken over the market for casual payments, with free, instant, irreversible bank transfers between individuals using only the recipients phone number (or a QR code). They are a bunch of these systems, but currently they are all fractured into national systems, altho…

Yes. In Switzerland it's Twint. It's easy to use, instant and free for the user. It started out as an easy way to move small amounts of money around among family and friends without the hassle of doing a bank transfer. Now large grocery stores and online shops support it too. I don't see it overtaking the whole payment market because of the exclusivity to Switzerland. It'd be great if something like Twint would exist but usable and prevalent all over the world.

Re: Bank transfers as a payment method

#124

Post by fbrncci »

jacquesm wrote: post #33
kalleboo wrote: post #28

When discussing Europe, you can't leave out the rise of mobile payments that work similar to India's UPI. For instance, in Sweden, "Swish"[0] has quickly taken over the market for casual payments, with free, instant, irreversible bank transfers between individuals using only the recipients phone number (or a QR code). They are a bunch of these systems, but currently they are all fractured into national systems, altho…

Tikkies are the Dutch equivalent. https://dutchreview.com/expat/tikkie-netherlands/

It's pretty great. These transfers sometimes arrive within <1s. The speed and ease of use is something that cryptocurrencies are "trying" to "solve" (Among other things). Most aren't aware of the wide adoption here already, of course there are other aspects crypto's score better on. But if all bank transfers would be a Tikkie, then what would Crypto's, in terms of ease of use and speed have to offer?

Re: Bank transfers as a payment method

#125

Post by grncdr »

elric wrote: post #75

The article is factually incorrect when it talks about "SEPA payments", claiming they are a "pull" mechanism. What it probably meant to talk about, is SEPA Direct Debits -- where the counterpart charges your account, as opposed to you paying the counterpart. Given that these direct debit agreements are revokable at any point in time, I doubt the claims of very high fraud rate. A normal SEPA payment, is a "push" affai…

> Given that these direct debit agreements are revokable at any point in time, I doubt the claims of very high fraud rate.

I think the claim is that because SEPA direct debits can be revoked within a very long window after settlement, it's more common that payments are revoked after goods/services have been provided (leaving businesses holding the bag). Whether this fits the precise definition of fraud I'm not sure, the payment was valid and successful, but later reversed. It would be a more interesting claim if there were some empirical comparisons included, but it certainly matches my experience.

Edited to add: another common form of fraud is somebody providing legitimate bank details of an unwitting victim. At least for some banks in Germany, the bank does not actually enforce authorisation from the account holder when a new direct debit mandate is introduced. The fraudster receives goods/services for free as long as the victim doesn't notice the charges.

Re: Bank transfers as a payment method

#126

Post by ErrantX »

mdp2021 wrote: post #102
jacquesm wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SEPA 'pull', aka merchant initiated transfers require a one time authorization, repeat debits require a one time authorization for the first payment and can be re-run afterwards (used for subscriptions), and can be revoked up to 90 days after the payment was done.

> a one time authorization Yes, but how well defined, or how loose, is that "authorization"?

Pretty good now; the legislation mandates multi-factor authentication by the issuing bank. So customer has to prove presence directly with their bank to authorise the payment.

There is also dynamic linking (ie you are shown the amount but also a unique code that the payment requestor also showed you) so you are confident it is the same transaction.

Re: Bank transfers as a payment method

#127

Post by lubien »

Worth mentioning Brazil has new transfer method called Pix that takes mostly 10 seconds to exchange money to another bank account and you only need the other person/company ID or email or phone number or a random key (the account owner choose which ones they want to allow). It came just a few years ago but basically everyone has it now since it's a payment method directly coming from the Central Bank and all banks implemented it by now. It's pretty easy to generate a QR code and bill someone but you can also set it up on your website in a way that you can check when it's paid programatically. Worth mentioning: it's free of costs except if you're a company that want to use the REST API. By the way, they even use GitHub to discuss things and document their API, really nice

Re: Bank transfers as a payment method

#128

Post by lubien »

lubien wrote: post #127

Worth mentioning Brazil has new transfer method called Pix that takes mostly 10 seconds to exchange money to another bank account and you only need the other person/company ID or email or phone number or a random key (the account owner choose which ones they want to allow). It came just a few years ago but basically everyone has it now since it's a payment method directly coming from the Central Bank and all banks im…

Dropping in https://github.com/bacen

Re: Bank transfers as a payment method

#129

Post by Semaphor »

hyperman1 wrote: post #96
elric wrote: post #75

The article is factually incorrect when it talks about "SEPA payments", claiming they are a "pull" mechanism. What it probably meant to talk about, is SEPA Direct Debits -- where the counterpart charges your account, as opposed to you paying the counterpart. Given that these direct debit agreements are revokable at any point in time, I doubt the claims of very high fraud rate. A normal SEPA payment, is a "push" affai…

I'd have to agree. Everything in the article about Europe is technically correct, but it is such a small slice of the SEPA payments. The article is so misleading it might as well be wrong. I make payments to the benelux, france, germany, spain and poland, and they go all over the push mechanism. Direct debit is for utilities, and that's about it. For fraud, my bank provides a gui with active agreements. While I can't…

> Direct debit is for utilities, and that's about it.

Here in Germany, bigger online stores offered it as well. I used to use it for Amazon several years ago.

Re: Bank transfers as a payment method

#130

Post by rambambram »

> I expect we’ll see bank transfers as a more prominent part of the payment mix in much of the world.

Interesting read.

I have multiple clients in Europe who use my webshop system with simple bank transfers as the only payment method. It's so easy. No setting up shit like iDeal or Stripe or anything like that, no fees, just paying from one bank to the other. It comes so close to paying with cash. It's not instant so you can't really program against it (as with iDeal here in The Netherlands, your country has probably something similar), so it's not really suitable for big automated webshops. But for small businesses and/or freelancers who want to make money online it's such a game changer.

Let's say you just started a small business selling digital or physical goods, the only thing you need to do is enter your IBAN bank account number and you can get paid within a workday or two. Customers place an order, click a button that says 'I just paid', you as the business owner check your bank account on a daily basis (just from your smartphone) to see if you received their money, if you receive their money you click another button and can fullfill the order.

From experience I know I'll receive money from Germany within one business day, and from the rest of EU within two business days. It depends on the banks I guess, because sometimes even customers from EU with IBAN bank accounts tell me they can't make the payment. Still, it's so easy.

Even for filing your VAT as a business it's stupidly easy in EU, because whatever you sell to Spain or Poland or Ireland, if you stay under a certain threshold (which is pretty high for a one person company) you can just do the taxes in your own country according to the rules you know.

I just really miss the UK, stupid Brexit. I have to quadruple the amount of paperwork if I want to sell to the UK. It's not worth the hassle. Just not worth it.

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