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Bank transfers as a payment method

bam.kalzumeus.com

71–80 of 335 posts

Re: Bank transfers as a payment method

#71
post #29

Just yesterday, I deposited money from my bank account to Coinbase via SEPA. Refreshed the Coinbase page, and it was there, ready to buy digital currency with - so, the transaction was instant, or almost so. The transfer didn’t cost me anything, and neither did it Coinbase (it seems). Coinbase seems to be positive the transaction will settle, or else it wouldn’t let me use the money immediately, right? Reversibility…

Leading Payment Engineer of one the most aggressive challenger banks in EU here:

- first, SEPA has several message types

- SEPA SCT: A standard transfer, usually settled the next day - SEPA SCT Inst: a realtime transfer, to be settled within 10 seconds max (check rulebook on ECB website) - SEPA SDD Core: Direct debit, this can be used to pay your utility bills e.g.; though you can revert this one up to a couple of month - SEPA SDD B2B: Direct debit for businesses, this one can't be reverted as you gave an explicitly signed permission to execute those (this one is used between businesses)

So, my idea here would be that COINBASE is supporting/using a partnerbank/PSP which allows SEPA SCT Instant.

Regarding fraud: - if one gets aware of your IBAN, the other party can try to pull an SDD, thats right. But: you can claim this one at your bank and you will be refunded immediately. (with SEPA SDD B2B, this wouldn't be possible as you would have a signed a permission) Though, unless a fraudster is counterfeiting your signature, no one will pull a SEPA SDD B2B. But, sure: Check your accounts regulary.

- regarding SEPA SCT Instant: To execute such transaction, you need to verify it by 2FA. If you give permission on your 2FA device, the money is send out.

- what if you do a typo with SEPA SCT Instant or if someone get somehow around your 2FA? In this case, you could reach out to the other bank with a so called R-Transaction, though if a fraudster is aware of all this, i'm pretty sure the person is capable of managing the rest of the track to pull the money out by doing additional subsequent transfers to other banks

P.S.: As far as i can see, Coinbase is not running through us, you may check your bank statement to see which way the money went ;-)

Re: Bank transfers as a payment method

#72
post #43
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could do without #5 to be honest. Should be working towards a more decentralized approach.

Why this obsession with doing away with a central authority? What is so evil about a central bank? Decentralization is not cheap. I buy a pack of bread from a door-to-door bread and eggs salesman (Yes that's a thing in India). It costs INR 40 ($0.53). I pay him via UPI, he gets money instantly in his bank account with zero fees. He gets full INR 40 like I had paid him in cash. I don't think any decentralized system w…

Because....because.....well....because THEN I COULDN'T SHILL YOU A CRYPTO TOKEN. There. I said it.

Re: Bank transfers as a payment method

#73

Bank-to-bank money transfers in South Africa is a mostly solved problem. (Electronic funds transfer/known as EFT locally) - payments above coffee-shop prices often happen by EFT. - it arrives within 2 days, bank sends proof of payment instantly and sellers accept that as sufficient proof. - can opt to send instantaneously which reflects within seconds to minutes (for a small fee, like ~$1). - non reversible - need ba…

[deleted]

Re: Bank transfers as a payment method

#74
post #12
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crypto currencies are great for paying people whose names and banking details you don't necessarily know. I've used them to pretty good effect to date and the fact that they have all the drawbacks of cash and are used by criminals too doesn't diminish any of that.

.. wait until you find out what cash is used for.

Banh mi?

Re: Bank transfers as a payment method

#75
The article is factually incorrect when it talks about "SEPA payments", claiming they are a "pull" mechanism. What it probably meant to talk about, is SEPA Direct Debits -- where the counterpart charges your account, as opposed to you paying the counterpart. Given that these direct debit agreements are revokable at any point in time, I doubt the claims of very high fraud rate.

A normal SEPA payment, is a "push" affair. These have (for all intents and purposes, though not technically) been a thing ever since the euro was introduced, whereas SEPA Direct Debit is more recent, replacing many of the existing domestic direct debit schemes.

Then there's the Instant Payments bit: these are a thing but they're not used all that often (yet?). Most banks charge a hefty fee for an instant payment (mine charges €1.25). Some banks don't offer them at all. Adoption will grow and costs will decrease over time.

In most countries, payments within the same bank have been instant (and free) for a very long time. This is one of the reasons why many companies have accounts with multiple banks.

I'm sure some "weaker" european countries may have laxer fraud controls, but that's a temporary problem. ECB reporting is quite strict, and most banks do take fraud detection very seriously. Reputation is important for a bank, and if you're a truly disreputable bank you'll soon find yourself without friendly correspondent banks. Then you'll have a choice: fix your fraud problems, or become a useless island.

Re: Bank transfers as a payment method

#76
post #43
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could do without #5 to be honest. Should be working towards a more decentralized approach.

Why this obsession with doing away with a central authority? What is so evil about a central bank? Decentralization is not cheap. I buy a pack of bread from a door-to-door bread and eggs salesman (Yes that's a thing in India). It costs INR 40 ($0.53). I pay him via UPI, he gets money instantly in his bank account with zero fees. He gets full INR 40 like I had paid him in cash. I don't think any decentralized system w…

It obviously costs money to banks to maintain the infra that makes UPI possible.

Cash printing, distribution, and handling is super expensive. Replacing a big chunk of that with some servers and data costs would be a huge win.

Plus they get all that valuable data about what everyone is doing...

Re: Bank transfers as a payment method

#77
> result in the recipient learning two things about the sender (name and phone number, both of which are configurable at transaction time)

The recipient of Japanese bank transfers only gets the name. The phone number is only for the sending bank's side to reach out to the sender in case the transfer failed. Particularly of importance when you make transfers without owning an account at the sending bank (not sure how common that feature is outside Japan).

Also of note, the Zengin system actually allows additional metadata in so-called EDI messages. However it's somewhat rare to see this offered by interfaces, and so likely not generally suitable. Here's one example: https://faq-chibabank.dga.jp/faq_detail.html?id=31

> The Single Europe Payment Area (SEPA) offers free, instant transactions between European banks. They’re pull based

There are also push based SEPA transfers. Not that the article claims there aren't, just seems incomplete to present only the push based version for Japan (and not furikae and its challenges) and only the pull based version for Europe.

Re: Bank transfers as a payment method

#78

Bank-to-bank money transfers in South Africa is a mostly solved problem. (Electronic funds transfer/known as EFT locally) - payments above coffee-shop prices often happen by EFT. - it arrives within 2 days, bank sends proof of payment instantly and sellers accept that as sufficient proof. - can opt to send instantaneously which reflects within seconds to minutes (for a small fee, like ~$1). - non reversible - need ba…

Guy from Romania here: we can even pay to phone numbers if you’re on ING (Dutch bank) or Revolut (from UK). They will get their client’s IBAN for you. At least in Bucharest almost every person around me has an account on both of these.

Re: Bank transfers as a payment method

#80
> n the U.S., I expect bank transfers will struggle to see general adoption as a payment method, even after the release of FedNow, but who knows what will be built on top of them. Cards are very popular and entrenched, and the economic model allows them to outcompete free on price alone. New payment methods will need to find something very interesting to offer to capture the user’s interest, and some participant in the transaction to pay for it; Buy Now Pay Later had the interesting insight that some businesses would happily underwrite their customers’ use of credit if someone else took the payment risk. Perhaps we’ll see similar experiments in applications using bank transfers as the underlying payment rail but with more complicated economics split creatively between the parties.

Well, yeah, the other thing is, what interest do I have in letting the merchant get my funds directly without a middleman who promises to step in in the case of fraud? I am quite happy to continue paying with credit.

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