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Why Carbon Taxes Work

timharford.com

101–107 of 107 posts

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#101
post #2

As long as the pollution tax is higher than the cost to clean up the pollution it works, because then the company cleans up the pollution for you. Also massive incentives to reduce pollution, and reduce cost of pollution cleaning technologies.

Except who actually pays the tax? Energy consumers, which is anyone who needs electricity or fuel for their household. You just don't see it in the explanation of why your electric rates went up 50-100%. Or, if it doesn't go up, you start living with brown outs and blackouts like California.

That's why the proceeds of the carbon tax should be split up and paid out evenly across the whole population.

It's not just a uniform increase in prices. It's people who emit an above average amount of carbon paying the people who emit a below average amount of carbon.

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Energy runs the world. It isn’t as one dimensional as you paint it. Governments don’t simply subsidize burning coal. . . They do so as a means to meet the growing demand of their people for electricity. India for example, has one of the most expensive fuels sold in the world thanks to immense taxation. Even with one of the lower per capital incomes in the world, they are a massive energy market because ENERGY IS NEED…

I wasn't talking about Indian (I'll assume we are talking about India) coal plants, who are indeed benefiting from quite a bit of foreign subsidized manufacturing and coal exports by various countries. All I'm saying is that there's no need for any of these countries to subsidize or support that in any way. The Indians of course have some difficult choices to make regarding how they grow their economy and energy sect…

Wait, it’s hard to take you seriously if you think India pays below market rate for coal from Australia. Is that really your stance or am I misreading that?

They have domestic production that accounts for a significant portion of domestic electricity generation that is bought at market value and then sold commercially through government supported subsidy to help their economic needs.

This isn’t a question of “they’re getting it for cheap because of subsidies” - if indeed that’s what you’re saying, it’s a rather uninformed position on the matter.

Also, I don’t care what the new German government “intends” to do. The old one “intended” to turn off the bulk of their Nuclear sources leading to coal use surging at peak (which is happening all the more frequently now with the winter energy mix being thrown off)

You seem to have a stock position for increasing the cost of dirty sources without a care for what compels economies to use them in the first place. That is precisely the point I’m trying to get you to see. They aren’t used one dimensionally because they’re dirty and no one has prioritized clean energy sources yet, but because they are necessary and the alternatives don’t fit the bill for the need of the hour.

Adding a carbon tax in this context is a very arrogant way of saying “Fuck your needs, if you have to pay more, you’ll learn to live with less”

When the point is we want to innovate so we get the economic value that modern technology such as SMRs produce without needing to subject a billion people to continue living with powercuts that stretch hours a day because the “civilized” world thinks the pollution from them wanting a better life is too dangerous for the world.

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#103
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The consumers, they pay all for everything after all. The point is to stop companies cheating by polluting for free to make their product cheaper at our expense

That's not what will happen. The consumers have to pay for electricity, otherwise your sending them back to the stoneage.

But they should prefer to get solar/wind/nuclear, which would be half the price of coal/oil/gas if those 3 weren't cheating by polluting our air for free

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#104
No. Carbon taxes are an accounting trick.

Just fucking deploy modern nuclear technology. Run trains and heating and industrial heating for entire cities limitlessly with a predictable dollar budget. Zero carbon emissions.

The problem I have with this entire line of argument is how in reality you have nations such as China generating significant volumes of carbon credits in exchange for that sweet cash generated by gullible nations.

We have the Department of fucking Energy and a thousand other agencies that have researched and operated this technology for decades in the most grueling environments (Nuclear Submarines and other classified domains) and it is more than ready for large scale commercial use.

Imagine having limitless power to run projects of Earth scale -> Literally convert saltwater of an ocean into freshwater and pump it continuously into deserts or inland. . . Turn off natural gas heating entirely in the northern hemisphere thanks to electric heating . . The possibilities are endless.

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#105
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Superyacht fuel efficiency is measured in gallons per mile. Private jets use ridiculous amounts of fuel. The middle class will drive while the poor take the bus. It's not as regressive as you'd think. This can also be offset with tax rebates for those on lower incomes. Politically the problem is that the wealthy will use every lobbying, legal and propaganda tool to shift the burden off their backs.

>while the poor take the bus. Except in most of America, where the poor have to drive as well, and spend a much higher percentage of their income on cars. Evidently most don't mind or are even supportive, because it supposedly buys them freedom (From what? Disposable income?).

In many poorer areas bus services aren't reliable - and that can cost you your job.

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except who actually pays the tax? Energy consumers, which is anyone who needs electricity or fuel for their household. You just don't see it in the explanation of why your electric rates went up 50-100%. Or, if it doesn't go up, you start living with brown outs and blackouts like California.

That's why the proceeds of the carbon tax should be split up and paid out evenly across the whole population. It's not just a uniform increase in prices. It's people who emit an above average amount of carbon paying the people who emit a below average amount of carbon.

The proceeds should be used to clean up the pollution, isn't that the whole point?

Re: Why Carbon Taxes Work

#107
post #82
post #42

1) Tax carbon at the source - yes, that means every oil well and coal mine pays a whopping great tax before any fossil energy leaves the front gate. Prices will adjust all the way down the supply chain 2) Use this huge income source as global helicopter money, the dividend every person in the world gets from allowing other people to destroy their global shared ecosystem 3) Create various green energy projects into wh…

>Prices will adjust all the way down the supply chain Hitting the poorest most, since rise in energy prices has a cumulative effect on everyday spending. Also "adjustments" can very easily lead to shocks if not done carefully. And don't forget, we are talking about it in a highly inflationary environment. To summarize: small mistakes in introducing such policy can easily lead to a sizable civil unrest. >Use this huge…

Not OP, but...

> And I am not even touching the matter of exports becoming less competitive on global markets against countries which do not implement such policies. So I don't think that most people magically will be able to invest into green projects en masse.

you tax imports in the same way

>Hitting the poorest most, since rise in energy prices has a cumulative effect on everyday spending

Every person will get the same share, so with no behavior change there's no reason to have a greater impact then current system, but the incentives align to go green, and poor people can definitely act on that

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