Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: How did you learn math notation?

news.ycombinator.com

111–120 of 258 posts

Re: Ask HN: How did you learn math notation?

#111
post #97

I have a notation problem. I want to write "approximately 24 volt" on my printed circuit board, but I have little space. I could write "≈24V", but the wavy symbol makes it look like it is AC instead of DC. How to solve this without adding more characters or changing my circuit?

Use =c.24V (read as 'equals circa 24 volts', circa is Latin for 'about').

Use the 3 line version of approximately equal (looks like tilde above an equal sign, ≅).

Re: Ask HN: How did you learn math notation?

#112

Well, the real fun is deciphering a lower case xi - ξ - when written on the blackboard (or whiteboard), specially compared to a lower case zeta - ζ (fortunately way less commonly used). As all the others already told you. you don't learn by reading alone.

xi vs epsilon vs zeta when chalked on a blackboard at pace and read from 30m away!

Learning the Greek alphabet pays off.

Re: Ask HN: How did you learn math notation?

#113

I think a real problem in this area is the belief that there is "one true notation" and that everything is unambiguous and clearly defined. Yes, conventions have emerged, people tend to use the same sort of notation in a given context, but in the main, the notation should be regarded as an aide memoire , something to guide you. You say that you're struggling because of "the math notations and zero explanation of it i…

I was trying to grasp some of the papers linked in the Valhalla DSP block, for example this one: http://www2.ece.rochester.edu/courses/ECE472/resources/Paper... There is a formula with a triangle and I don't get what's that about, for example.

A few points:

1. You're reading a journal article. They will assume you know the notation not just of the broader discipline (e.g. physics/electrical engineering), but of the subdiscipline and at times the subsubdiscipline. Journal papers are explicitly written not to be easy to comprehend by beginners.[1] Notation will be only one problem you'll face.

2. As has been pointed out, this is not a mathematics paper. Mathematicians have their own notation, as do physicists and engineers. As I mentioned in the above bullet, they can have their own notation even in subdisciplines (e.g. circuit folks use "j" for the imaginary number, and semiconductor folks use "i"). There is a lot of overlap in notation amongst these parties, but you should never assume because you know one notation that you'll easily understand the math written by other fields.

3. Most introductory textbooks will explain the basic notation. Unfortunately, I often do find gaps where you go to higher level textbooks and they use notation that they don't explain (i.e. they assume you've seen it before), but is not covered in the prior textbooks.

4. Finally, sorry to say this, but "delta" (the triangle) for representing change is used in almost all sciences and engineering. It was heavily used in my high school as well. If you're struggling with this you really need to read some introductory textbooks in, say, physics.

[1] I'm not kidding. I've spent time in academia and I've complained how obtuse some articles are, and almost universally the response is "We write for other experts, not for new graduate students". One professor took pride at the fact that in his field, one can comprehend only about one page of a paper per day - and this coming from someone who is an expert. These people have issues.

Re: Ask HN: How did you learn math notation?

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea what the hell that means, and I am quite familiar with Lagrangian mechanics.

https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/titles/content/... It's formula 1.12 at the start of section 1.5 on this page converted into a Scheme representation, in section 1.5.2.

Thanks! I am not sure I like the Scheme-like notation, but the effort is interesting.

Re: Ask HN: How did you learn math notation?

#115
1] learn the greek alphabet if you haven’t already.

2] dive deep into the history of math.

3] youtube… 3 blue 1 brown, stand up maths, numberphile, kahn academy. These channels are your friends.

4] don’t give up and make it fun. Once you’re bit by the bug of curiosity and are rewarded with understanding you’ll most probably be unstoppable but still, its a long road. Better to focus on the journey.

Lastly, the notation is what it is because of the nature of math itself coupled with the history of who was doing the solving exacerbated by the cultural uptake. There have been and will continue to be new notation. Its unfortunate that often to learn a new concept the barrier is with parsing the syntax. Stick with it and stay curious and those squiggles will take on new magical and profound meanings.

Re: Ask HN: How did you learn math notation?

#116

I think a real problem in this area is the belief that there is "one true notation" and that everything is unambiguous and clearly defined. Yes, conventions have emerged, people tend to use the same sort of notation in a given context, but in the main, the notation should be regarded as an aide memoire , something to guide you. You say that you're struggling because of "the math notations and zero explanation of it i…

> I think a real problem in this area is the belief that there is "one true notation" and that everything is unambiguous and clearly defined. One main cause for this belief is that in a programming there is one true noation (or rather, a separate one for each language) that is unambiguous and clearly defined. I dislike maths notation as I find it lacks rigour.

> in a programming there is one true noation (or rather, a separate one for each language) that is unambiguous and clearly defined

Yes this is why we all use Hungarian notation and GNU indentation.

Re: Ask HN: How did you learn math notation?

#117
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the approach they took in Structure and Interpretation of Classical Mechanics, where the whole book is done in Scheme: (define ((Lagrange-equations Lagrangian) q) (- (D (compose ((partial 2) Lagrangian) (Gamma q))) (compose ((partial 1) Lagrangian) (Gamma q))))

I have no idea what the hell that means, and I am quite familiar with Lagrangian mechanics.

Compare it to D(∂₂L∘Γ[q]) − ∂₁L∘Γ[q] = 0.

Of course, even that isn’t quite the standard notation; it’s using a less ambiguous notation which they invented for the book. From the preface (https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/titles/content/...):

---

Classical mechanics is deceptively simple. It is surprisingly easy to get the right answer with fallacious reasoning or without real understanding. Traditional mathematical notation contributes to this problem. Symbols have ambiguous meanings that depend on context, and often even change within a given context.¹ For example, a fundamental result of mechanics is the Lagrange equations. In traditional notation the Lagrange equations are written

d/dt ∂L/∂q̇ⁱ − ∂L/∂qⁱ = 0.

The Lagrangian L must be interpreted as a function of the position and velocity components qⁱ and q̇ⁱ, so that the partial derivatives make sense, but then in order for the time derivative d/dt to make sense solution paths must have been inserted into the partial derivatives of the Lagrangian to make functions of time. The traditional use of ambiguous notation is convenient in simple situations, but in more complicated situations it can be a serious handicap to clear reasoning. In order that the reasoning be clear and unambiguous, we have adopted a more precise mathematical notation. Our notation is functional and follows that of modern mathematical presentations.² An introduction to our functional notation is in an appendix.

Computation also enters into the presentation of the mathematical ideas underlying mechanics. We require that our mathematical notations be explicit and precise enough that they can be interpreted automatically, as by a computer. As a consequence of this requirement the formulas and equations that appear in the text stand on their own. They have clear meaning, independent of the informal context. For example, we write Lagrange’s equations in functional notation as follows:³

D(∂₂L ∘ Γ[q]) − ∂₁L ∘ Γ[q] = 0.

The Lagrangian L is a real-valued function of time t, coordinates x, and velocities v; the value is L(t, x, v). Partial derivatives are indicated as derivatives of functions with respect to particular argument positions; ∂₂L indicates the function obtained by taking the partial derivative of the Lagrangian function L with respect to the velocity argument position. The traditional partial derivative notation, which employs a derivative with respect to a “variable,” depends on context and can lead to ambiguity.⁴ The partial derivatives of the Lagrangian are then explicitly evaluated along a path function q. The time derivative is taken and the Lagrange equations formed. Each step is explicit; there are no implicit substitutions.

---

    (define ((Lagrange-equations Lagrangian) q)
      (- (D (compose ((partial 2) Lagrangian) (Gamma q)))
         (compose ((partial 1) Lagrangian) (Gamma q))))
I think you can see that the Scheme code is a direct and very simple translation of the equation.

And it has the advantage that you can run it immediately after typing it in, assuming you have a coordinate path to pass to it. They immediately go to a concrete example:

    (define ((L-free-particle mass) local)
      (let ((v (velocity local)))
        (* 1/2 mass (dot-product v v))))

    (define (test-path t)
      (up (+ (* 'a t) 'a0)
          (+ (* 'b t) 'b0)
          (+ (* 'c t) 'c0)))
    
    (((Lagrange-equations (L-free-particle 'm))
      test-path)
     't)
    ⇒ (down 0 0 0)
As the book says, “That the residuals are zero indicates that the test path satisfies the Lagrange equations.”

They then give another example, symbolic this time:

    (show-expression
     (((Lagrange-equations (L-free-particle 'm))
       (literal-function 'x))
      't))
    ⇒ (* (((expt D 2) x) t) m)
Quoted from https://mitpress.mit.edu/sites/default/files/titles/content/...

Re: Ask HN: How did you learn math notation?

#119
post #78

It sounds like you're trying to read papers that assume a certain level of mathematical sophistication without having reached that level. Typical engineering papers will assume at least what's taught in 2 years of college level mathematics, mainly calculus and linear algebra, and no they aren't going to be explaining notation used at that level. But it isn't just about the notation. You also need to understand the co…

The author explained his problem and asked for resource recommendations.

Your response is to scold him for having the problem he already said he had and instead of recommending resources you told him to go look on the internet.

And you implied he doesn't have motivation.

Re: Ask HN: How did you learn math notation?

#120
post #100
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the approach they took in Structure and Interpretation of Classical Mechanics, where the whole book is done in Scheme: (define ((Lagrange-equations Lagrangian) q) (- (D (compose ((partial 2) Lagrangian) (Gamma q))) (compose ((partial 1) Lagrangian) (Gamma q))))

I should really pick that one up some day. It had an inspiring story, I believe the author wanted to understand the classical mechanics and just wrote them out in Scheme.

Pretty much, yea. And because they are literally a 100× programmer, they also extended Scheme to support stuff you usually use a computer algebra system for at the same time. After all, if your CAS can take the derivative of a function, why can’t your programming language?
Post reply on HN