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Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

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Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#371

Post by martyvis »

josephg wrote: post #286
edge17 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will just add, the author of the NYT piece has a book out on this subject. The book is decent, has some cringe worthy descriptions of technical things if you are a technical person, but overall I learned a huge amount reading it. A lot of the commentary, accusations, and opinions in the comments here would be addressed or better colored if you're interested enough to read her book ( https://www.amazon.com/This-They…

If you want a more technical perspective, The Darknet Diaries did an episode a couple months ago about the NSO group: https://overcast.fm/+PMNc5Hr8c I discovered darknet diaries listening to that episode. It’s very accessible and excellent storytelling.

You actually want to listen to the previous episode to get context first https://darknetdiaries.com/episode/99/

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#372

Post by technobabbler »

SubjectToChange wrote: post #279
technobabbler wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beyond merely selling their products to Israel, the NSO Group itself is an Israeli firm, founded by ex-Israeli intelligence, and whose products are subject to Israeli national export controls. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSO_Group That's a level of sponsorship way beyond simply being a customer... that's state espionage served with a side of profit. It's evil when the USA does it, it's evil when the Russians do it,…

the NSO Group itself is an Israeli firm, founded by ex-Israeli intelligence, and whose products are subject to Israeli national export controls. All this means is that the NSO Group is an Israeli company staffed by Israeli citizens. I don't know what export controls have to do with anything since those apply categories of products, regardless of whether or not you have business with the Israeli government.

It's a little disingenuous to suggest that an intelligence firm founded by state intelligence officers is just another "Israeli company staffed by Israeli citizens", as though it were a street-corner restaurant. Other threads here have mentioned the close ties between that company and the government. Is this really controversial? Who else would a hardcore surveillance company's primary customers be..? Cheating spouses?

Export controls means, one, that the product they're selling is likely a concern of national security, unlike, say, your average lockpick kit or GPS tracker. Two, it means the state gets to selectively pick and choose who it shares this technology with, using it as a tool of statecraft/diplomacy/subterfuge/sabotage. It's a recognition of the value of the technology, along with a desire to limit its availability to Israel's enemies.

NSO's own website says "NSO Group, develops best-in-class technology to help government agencies detect and prevent a wide-range of local and global threats." It wouldn't exist if not for state sponsorship.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#373

Post by montblanc »

nier wrote: post #351
montblanc wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait what? You don't hire people from Microsoft? Let's say I get Facebook (I don't really) but what's wrong with Microsoft? How about people who eat meat? Or vote for the other party - the one you don't like? Are you trying to hire people who are morally compatible with you on every single question? That's gonna be rough hiring. Even the weapons industry is a tough one. The knee jerk reaction says it's immoral to wor…

The thought of any military being advanced due to Microsoft’s help made me giggle. My opinion is that the best you can do is to hire people with a similar set of core values and there’s nothing wrong with everybody having their own ethical scale that they act upon accordingly.

> My opinion is that the best you can do is to hire people with a similar set of core values

Not working with people who worked at Microsoft is a huge inflation of the concept "core values". There are terrific people who work for Microsoft who are far better than you or I (statistically it must be true), yet they are somehow not good enough to pass your "core values". Which are what exactly?

Also - would you be as liberal for the opposite discrimination? Someone who thinks progressive politics should be banned in his company?

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#374

Post by montblanc »

einpoklum wrote: post #370
montblanc wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that so much different than how the U.S operates, other than Israel is really fun to demonize? The U.S arms whoever it wants to arm, Europe as well. So selling F-15's is cool but cyber hacks isn't. Got it.

The main differences from the US as I see them: * Less effective government control of the press (although that seems to be tightening up in recent years). * Less use of secrecy, i.e. more of the sales happen in the open. * The US has more enemies which it actually doesn't sell to. * No outside boss country to prevent the US from doing what it wants.

So morally there is no difference, there are only some technical differences.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#375

Post by einpoklum »

technobabbler wrote: post #365
montblanc wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that so much different than how the U.S operates, other than Israel is really fun to demonize? The U.S arms whoever it wants to arm, Europe as well. So selling F-15's is cool but cyber hacks isn't. Got it.

There's definitely parallels to be drawn between the Israeli and the American conservative/right-wing/militant nationalist elements. Both countries operate as global bullies, using military force to subjugate externally and propaganda and fear of replacement to subjugate internally, heavily enhanced by the use of technology. They both have this old-guard mentality of "might makes right" hegemony, which a lot of other…

> Israel at least has a survival need;

Every state has a "survival need"

> it learned the (very) hard way that it has many enemies constantly seeking to destroy it.

While that might be true at the level of people in the Arab East, but as far as states are concerned, that isn't actually the case. Unfortunately, repressive governments in Jordan, Egypt and elsewhere are supportive of Israel; and Lebanon and Syria are effectively quiescent long-term.

And that's despite Israel's best efforts to trigger enmity...

> It's an us-or-them mentality hardened by centuries of oppression and decades of war.

Israel has only existed for 73 years. And - it directly started most of the wars it fought; and one other was an attack to reclaim land occupied by a previous Israeli campaign. It's only the gulf war in which Israeli was "just attacked" (by Scud rockets from Iraq).

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#376

Post by montblanc »

technobabbler wrote: post #365
montblanc wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that so much different than how the U.S operates, other than Israel is really fun to demonize? The U.S arms whoever it wants to arm, Europe as well. So selling F-15's is cool but cyber hacks isn't. Got it.

There's definitely parallels to be drawn between the Israeli and the American conservative/right-wing/militant nationalist elements. Both countries operate as global bullies, using military force to subjugate externally and propaganda and fear of replacement to subjugate internally, heavily enhanced by the use of technology. They both have this old-guard mentality of "might makes right" hegemony, which a lot of other…

> hey both have this old-guard mentality of "might makes right" hegemony, which a lot of other countries (and some portion of their populations) don't like because it's broadly incompatible with a human-rights centered worldview that favors the pipe dream of peaceful multilateral democracies.

At least you are honest enough to say it's a pipe dream. It really is. The world is pretty brutal and liberal democracy is a value shared by a minority of humanity. If liberal democracy wants to survive it sometimes has to defend itself. The minimum it needs is an army to protect its people. Does that absolve U.S or Israel from every arms sell they do? Probably not. But it's a broad context we need to understand when we talk about this issue.

> which a lot of other countries (and some portion of their populations) don't like because it's broadly incompatible with a human-rights centered worldview

I understand that's the liberal and progressive thing to say. But if you really think about it, it reeks from hypocrisy. The "progressive" countries (who are they exactly?) like Canada, Sweden, Australia etc all need the U.S to protect them. They wouldn't want the U.S to go away, not in a million years.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#377

Post by [deleted] »

bjourne wrote: post #238
einpoklum wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Israeli national export controls A crash course in Israeli national export control: 1. You can sell everything except for nuclear tech (and maybe even that, I don't know). 2. If the client is not officially an enemy of Israel then do whatever you want, we don't give an f'ing f'. 3. If the client _is_ officially an enemy of Israel, then all sales must be conducted through official (secret) state channels. Independen…

Are you sure about that? The English translation of the export control law seem to imply that companies exporting defense equipment must have a license and that that license can be revoked whenever for almost whatever reason: http://www.exportctrl.mod.gov.il/Documents/%D7%97%D7%95%D7%A... I may be misunderstanding it though.

[deleted]

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#378

Post by montblanc »

einpoklum wrote: post #375
technobabbler wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's definitely parallels to be drawn between the Israeli and the American conservative/right-wing/militant nationalist elements. Both countries operate as global bullies, using military force to subjugate externally and propaganda and fear of replacement to subjugate internally, heavily enhanced by the use of technology. They both have this old-guard mentality of "might makes right" hegemony, which a lot of other…

> Israel at least has a survival need; Every state has a "survival need" > it learned the (very) hard way that it has many enemies constantly seeking to destroy it. While that might be true at the level of people in the Arab East, but as far as states are concerned, that isn't actually the case. Unfortunately, repressive governments in Jordan, Egypt and elsewhere are supportive of Israel; and Lebanon and Syria are ef…

> And - it directly started most of the wars it fought; and one other was an attack to reclaim land occupied by a previous Israeli campaign. It's only the gulf war in which Israeli was "just attacked" (by Scud rockets from Iraq).

That's a very naive way to look at things, I really doubt you bothered looking into it deeply. Israel had little choice to go to the 1967 war, Egypt was preparing for war both rhetorically and in action (blockade of the Straits of Tiran among others). If you actually care about History and read about that period you'd understand Israel felt it was facing an existential threat. Was it the case? We don't really know. There was a good chance Egypt would have started invading. I agree that Arab states tend to sometimes speak a lot (even threatening genocide) without doing much, but Israel couldn't really know.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#379

Post by montblanc »

newbie789 wrote: post #358
montblanc wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is actually part of the Israeli state-sponsored terrorism around the world Care to explain what you mean? When the U.S sells arms by the billions to despot regimes is it also a state-sponsored terrorism around the world? Or just when Israel sells a cyber app you call it that?

> When the U.S sells arms by the billions to despot regimes is it also a state-sponsored terrorism around the world? Yeah

Just putting it out here ... https://www.statista.com/statistics/267131/market-share-of-t...

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#380

Post by Siira »

So that we are only spied on by bigger agents (e.g., China), and Apple can continue to lie to the roof about how its anti-user, anti-competitive behaviors are for our own good, and are not mere security theater designed first and foremost to enforce Apple’s rent-seeking.
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