Live data from Hacker News

Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

apple.com

281–290 of 477 posts

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Under what law? NSO used Apple's services, thereby agreeing to U.S. jurisdiction. (It also deals in dollars and has customers in America.) If it ignores U.S. courts, it would be held in contempt at the very least. That enables the Feds to start freezing and confiscating assets, possibly even issuing arrest warrants. That happens domestically first and through treaties second. Given how much bad blood NSO has genera…

"That enables the Feds to start freezing and confiscating assets, possibly even issuing arrest warrants. That happens domestically first and through treaties second." It's a civil case.

> It's a civil case

If you perjure yourself in a civil case, you've committed a crime. Contempt of court is, similarly, a (process) crime.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#282
post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some practical problems with this. Suppose that Small Co sells the assets of a business unit to Big Co. Do you now have a contract with Small Co. or Big Co.? Small Co. no longer has the rights to the software. Big Co. may not agree to the terms of the old license. Suppose someone dies and their assets go to their heirs. Do you now have a contract with the heirs? What if there are no heirs, so the assets go…

What are the problems here? > Suppose that Small Co sells the assets of a business unit to Big Co. Do you now have a contract with Small Co. or Big Co.? Small Co. no longer has the rights to the software That's right, that's what they sold. > Big Co. may not agree to the terms of the old license. Then I guess maybe they shouldn't have bought it. > Suppose someone dies and their assets go to their heirs. Do you now ha…

So if I sell you a magic rock under the contract that so long as you are in possession of said rock I have legal authority to monitor your household to make sure you don’t misuse the rock for evil, and you die and your heir comes in possession of the rock, I now have a contract with your heir? I can go set up cameras in their house and invade their privacy just because you wanted a magic rock? That doesn't seem right?..

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"That enables the Feds to start freezing and confiscating assets, possibly even issuing arrest warrants. That happens domestically first and through treaties second." It's a civil case.

> It's a civil case If you perjure yourself in a civil case, you've committed a crime. Contempt of court is, similarly, a (process) crime.

It's not a crime to simply not show up. Default judgement that they won't ever pay, and everyone moves on with their lives.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#284
post #7

It is great to see this happen. It's also fascinating that the crux of the Apple's case against NSO hinges on NSO engineers that accepted iCloud's terms and conditions. From related NYT article: > The sample of Pegasus gave Apple a forensic understanding of how Pegasus worked. The company found that NSO’s engineers had created more than 100 fake Apple IDs to carry out their attacks. In the process of creating those a…

As quoted that sounds like a choice of law clause, not a choice of forum clause, and so wouldn't necessarily help in bringing suit in California.

In computer terms a choice of law clause in a contract is essentially a macro that when the contract is interpreted in a court expands to the contract law of the jurisdiction named in the clause.

If a court in, say, Kentucky hears a contract dispute and the contract has a choice of law clause specifying California it is essentially as if the parties wrote California contract law into their contract. For things that a contract does not have the power to alter in Kentucky, Kentucky law would apply regardless of what California law said. E.g., the Kentucky court would use Kentucky rules of civil procedure and would use Kentucky rules of evidence.

A choice of forum clause requires the parties to use a particular jurisdiction to settle disputes. When you agree to such a contract you are agreeing to give the courts of that jurisdiction personal jurisdiction over you for matters involving that contract.

PS: I found the EULA. In addition to a choice of law clause it has a choice of forum clause:

> Except to the extent expressly provided in the following paragraph, this Agreement and the relationship between you and Apple shall be governed by the laws of the State of California, excluding its conflicts of law provisions. You and Apple agree to submit to the personal and exclusive jurisdiction of the courts located within the county of Santa Clara, California, to resolve any dispute or claim arising from this Agreement

PPS: note that the choice of law clause excludes California's conflict of law provisions. That's to avoid the situation where California's law says that some third jurisdiction's law should apply. In theory you could even end up in a situation where jurisdiction X says to use Y's laws and Y says to use X's, and then you've really got a mess.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Agreed. That's exactly what it seems like. And that sounds like immoral, unjustifiable, sickening hell. That Apple gets to hold all the cards, no one else on the planet gets any say in how a device might be used. I'm not a big proponent of IP, but you're basically saying it is immoral, unjustifiable, and sickening as hell that Apple enforces the rules that Apple wants on Apple products/services, which were created…

The law works fine when there is no monopoly. But since Apple has 50% of the market share, the law doesn't work well anymore.

> But since Apple has 50% of the market share, the law doesn't work well anymore.

Apple has 60% of the mobile market in the US[1].

[1] https://www.pcmag.com/news/ios-more-popular-in-japan-and-us-...

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#286
post #45
post #7

It is great to see this happen. It's also fascinating that the crux of the Apple's case against NSO hinges on NSO engineers that accepted iCloud's terms and conditions. From related NYT article: > The sample of Pegasus gave Apple a forensic understanding of how Pegasus worked. The company found that NSO’s engineers had created more than 100 fake Apple IDs to carry out their attacks. In the process of creating those a…

I will just add, the author of the NYT piece has a book out on this subject. The book is decent, has some cringe worthy descriptions of technical things if you are a technical person, but overall I learned a huge amount reading it. A lot of the commentary, accusations, and opinions in the comments here would be addressed or better colored if you're interested enough to read her book ( https://www.amazon.com/This-They…

If you want a more technical perspective, The Darknet Diaries did an episode a couple months ago about the NSO group:

https://overcast.fm/+PMNc5Hr8c

I discovered darknet diaries listening to that episode. It’s very accessible and excellent storytelling.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#287
post #262
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sending the malware via iMessage, assuming the flaw was part of iMessage and not standard SMS.

But if they did that, Apple wouldn't need the EULA because then they could throw the CFAA at them.

I believe the CFAA is a criminal law, and charges would have to be brought by an AG. This is a civil case.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Against US based NSO property, practically speaking.

> US based NSO property, practically speaking Nope. Not only does Israel have an extradition treaty with the U.S., their civil systems are quite tightly linked. [1] https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/07-110-Isra...

Extradition has next to nothing to do with a civil EULA suit.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#289
post #282
post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the problems here? > Suppose that Small Co sells the assets of a business unit to Big Co. Do you now have a contract with Small Co. or Big Co.? Small Co. no longer has the rights to the software That's right, that's what they sold. > Big Co. may not agree to the terms of the old license. Then I guess maybe they shouldn't have bought it. > Suppose someone dies and their assets go to their heirs. Do you now ha…

So if I sell you a magic rock under the contract that so long as you are in possession of said rock I have legal authority to monitor your household to make sure you don’t misuse the rock for evil, and you die and your heir comes in possession of the rock, I now have a contract with your heir? I can go set up cameras in their house and invade their privacy just because you wanted a magic rock? That doesn't seem right…

Probably if the heir accepted the rock during the estate proceedings, but im just speculating.

Re: Apple sues NSO Group to curb the abuse of state-sponsored spyware

#290

We need to target the pos engineers and management at NSO, Finfisher, Hacking Group etc. who sell their souls for a fast buck. These pricks are likely already setting up the next corporate front for when this one collapses. Let's make the mercenary business a cripplingly expensive line of work.

"target them"? What are you proposing?

Ban them and their immediate family from everywhere: iCloud, Google, Instagram, Github, Cloudflare, Spotify, Steam, etc.

Make them explain their kids that they can't play games on Xbox or listen to music on Spotify because their daddy is a terrorist.

Post reply on HN