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The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

hedgehogreview.com

131–140 of 198 posts

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> universities have become administratively bloated and primarily function as a very expensive resort community for 18-22 year olds The worse thing is that people seem to really enjoy it. Every time I have a discussion on it with someone I inevitably hear arguments like “it was such a formative experience”, “university is not only for studying” and so on. It’s really crazy that a huge part of the population is convin…

On the flip side, if people are invariably reporting that it changed their life and shaped their perspective of the world, who are you to say that the money was wasted or the experience was overpriced? What exactly is the fair market rate for a formative experience?

> On the flip side, if people are invariably reporting that it changed their life and shaped their perspective of the world, who are you to say that the money was wasted or the experience was overpriced? What exactly is the fair market rate for a formative experience?

Is there any reason to believe that university is any less formative outside of the states?

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#132

When I first moved to the San Francisco Bay Area, my husband drove the family to see San Francisco one day. It was the most beautiful and inspiring big city I had ever seen. We stopped at the bookstore on the way home and I bought a bunch of books related to my interest in urban planning and read them while convalescing. One book was a collection of excerpts from various urban planning tomes. Another was a book calle…

>Another was a book called Seeing like a state

I think you'll find James Scott has a strong HN fanbase

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do most people tithe at church?

In the United States, most churches are open to anyone who wants to come in, but often being a "member" of the church requires providing some form of formal support, such as tithing (members typically have at least some say in church policy, while random congregants do not). Congregants (who may not be official members) also generally add something to the collection plate when it comes around. Some countries still ha…

I've never been in an American church that required any particular form of support, for what it's worth.

Most churches did give sermons on the subject, but there was never a direct consequence for ignoring that teaching.

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#134
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the original person you are replying to, but several including myself. That said, I think that your question is a bit loaded. Textbook-level treatment of a subject is usually very shallow (depending on the subject, I suppose).

> several including myself Nice to meet the unicorn! Meanwhile, how many textbooks are on the shelves at Barnes&Nobel? Not exactly bestsellers, right? Even the University of Washington bookstore puts the textbooks in a separate room in the basement. > Textbook-level treatment of a subject is usually very shallow Maybe the ones you read are. The ones Caltech uses aren't, like this one: https://www.amazon.com/Gravitati…

Caltech has decided not to stock textbooks in its bookstore anymore, sadly (when I was there they still did)

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the United States, most churches are open to anyone who wants to come in, but often being a "member" of the church requires providing some form of formal support, such as tithing (members typically have at least some say in church policy, while random congregants do not). Congregants (who may not be official members) also generally add something to the collection plate when it comes around. Some countries still ha…

I've never been in an American church that required any particular form of support, for what it's worth. Most churches did give sermons on the subject, but there was never a direct consequence for ignoring that teaching.

Mormons have a special access tier of people who donate 10% of their income

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#136
post #103
post #61

Interesting to see the deep skepticism in the comments. I attended St John's College - which is probably as close as a "real" school can get to the Catherine Project - and loved every minute. Grades were not given, and there were no professors or lectures. Seeing criticism about the business model and lack of tests, worry about educational fads, etc, is missing the point, in my opinion. Consider the possibility that…

That's awesome I always wanted to talk to a St John's alumni. I heard most universities have a "great books" style course, do you know the difference? I'd love my daughter to do something like this.

The entirety of the four-year undergraduate curriculum is centered around great books, and there are no specific majors.

https://www.sjc.edu/academic-programs/undergraduate/great-bo...

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#137

Has anyone ever stopped to consider the ethical question of applying the latest unproven fads of educational theory to unwitting students? Ideally before large scale rollouts? As someone who grew up during a tumultuous time for the public education system in Ontario, Canada, it felt like ever year or two whole curriculums were thrown out and the latest and greatest "cutting edge" approaches and fads were foisted upon…

> Has anyone ever stopped to consider the ethical question of applying the latest unproven fads of educational theory to unwitting students?

Since this Catherine Project seems to be trying to offer a traditional education practice to students who are both witting and willing, and thus, to me, at least, doesn’t seem to raise any serious ethical issues, I will comment on your point about ethical issues in public education.

I teach and do research on foreign-language education in a non-English-speaking country, and a few years ago I started to think about the ethical issues involved in that area of education. In Japan, where I live, all school children are required to study English even though the majority of Japanese children and adults have little or no need for English in their lives. The teaching methods can involve activities that some students find embarrassing, such as presentations and role playing; some children also seem to feel that being required to speak a foreign language threatens their personal identity.

While children themselves will complain about having to study English and raise ethical issues about it (“Why do we have to do this!?”), the discourse among both educators and the general public seems to ignore whether it is morally acceptable to require all children to study and try to speak a foreign language that most of them will not use and will soon forget.

When I mentioned my inchoate thoughts about these issues to a philosopher colleague, he pointed me to the is-ought problem raised by David Hume [1, 2, 3]. That helped to clarify for me a related issue that had been bothering me. A lot of research about foreign-language education seems to be based on empirical, objective information (what is), such as whether a particular teaching method leads to higher test scores or not. Education researchers, however, often conclude their papers and presentations with ethical recommendations for action (what ought to be done), such as to adopt the teaching method that does lead to higher test scores. The ethical and logical problem with that kind of is-to-ought reasoning rarely if ever is discussed, at least in my corner of the field of education.

I don’t know if the same problem exists in other areas of education or in education policy in Ontario. But I can say that I was similarly annoyed as a child, in public schools in California more than fifty years ago, when I realized that we were being experimented on with a series of educational “innovations” of dubious benefit and without our consent.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is%E2%80%93ought_problem

[2] https://iep.utm.edu/evol-eth/#SH1c

[3] https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/hume-moral/#io

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#139
post #61

Interesting to see the deep skepticism in the comments. I attended St John's College - which is probably as close as a "real" school can get to the Catherine Project - and loved every minute. Grades were not given, and there were no professors or lectures. Seeing criticism about the business model and lack of tests, worry about educational fads, etc, is missing the point, in my opinion. Consider the possibility that…

> Interesting to see the deep skepticism in the comments.

I think if we look at the title and ignore the content of the article itself, it explains why the reaction was so strong.

A title that contains the word "liberal" and mentions experimenting with education is not going to bring out the most level-headed readers.

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do most people tithe at church?

In the United States, most churches are open to anyone who wants to come in, but often being a "member" of the church requires providing some form of formal support, such as tithing (members typically have at least some say in church policy, while random congregants do not). Congregants (who may not be official members) also generally add something to the collection plate when it comes around. Some countries still ha…

> often being a "member" of the church requires providing some form of formal support, such as tithing

This sounds very suspect to me. Do you have any sources for this assertion?

I've never heard of a church requiring any form of support, tithe etc to be a member or at all. I've been attending church and have been a member of several for 20+ years.

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