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The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

hedgehogreview.com

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Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#81

Post by csa »

WalterBright wrote: post #26

> Since education rather than money is calling the shots, we have the freedom to ask unheard-of questions. Who is paying the bills, then? > no grades There's a reason why students cram at the end of the semester. Without pressure from grades, they won't do the work of learning. I know for a fact that I don't learn if there aren't exams and grades.

> There's a reason why students cram at the end of the semester. Without pressure from grades, they won't do the work of learning. I know for a fact that I don't learn if there aren't exams and grades.

I can honestly say that grades got in the way of much of my learning, although I think that I’m atypical on this front.

University tests are typically very poorly designed (the folks who make them usually aren’t prepress I Al test developers), and quite a bit of effort needs to go into looking for old tests with model answers and going to either professor or TA office hours to get inside info on what is likely to be tested.

This took time away from me reading cited sources and cited sources from those cited sources, which was what (imho) gave me quite a bit of depth of knowledge of the subject area.

The good part was that I was often able to have conversations with the professor or TAs that went beyond the basics that were covered in the course, and sometimes this led to wonderful opportunities in further learning and/or research, but the loss of time spent on projects and tests for grades is time and learning that I will never get back.

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#82

Post by throwaway894345 »

throwawaygh wrote: post #79
glial wrote: post #61

Interesting to see the deep skepticism in the comments. I attended St John's College - which is probably as close as a "real" school can get to the Catherine Project - and loved every minute. Grades were not given, and there were no professors or lectures. Seeing criticism about the business model and lack of tests, worry about educational fads, etc, is missing the point, in my opinion. Consider the possibility that…

> Like a bible study, but without the bible. Yeah, exactly. Or hackerspaces. Or OSS. Or presenting at DEFCON. (And, yes, these folks will include this project in their tenure/promotion cases and therefore indirectly benefit professionally even if they don't charge just like in the cases above.) My only real "criticism" of this model is that the people doing this work shouldn't shy away from asking for "tithes"... hum…

Do most people tithe at church?

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#83

Post by tbjohnston »

Gentle note - I participated in one of the Catherine Project's events - a two hour session on Genesis 1-5. Thoroughly enjoyed it. Everyone involved came prepared, asked good questions, and listened thoughtfully to what others had to say. I'd cheerfully participate again.

I don't understand the skepticism either. If people want to engage a great text with a community, what's the harm?

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#84

Post by csa »

WalterBright wrote: post #75
dqpb wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Without pressure from grades, they won't do the work of learning. Then why do you suppose people read books in their free time?

How many people do you know who read textbooks in their spare time? And what percentage of them do the exercises in the book?

Not the original person you are replying to, but several including myself.

That said, I think that your question is a bit loaded. Textbook-level treatment of a subject is usually very shallow (depending on the subject, I suppose).

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#85

Post by AnimalMuppet »

WalterBright wrote: post #56
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of the things you learned under pressure of exams and grades, how many of them do you actually remember? That is, did you learn for long enough to pass the test, or did you learn ?

I'm well aware of the modern movement to discredit tests, arguing that doing well on tests have nothing to do with knowing the material. I'm not a subscriber to that. If you are, I expect you'll be disappointed with the results. It's also why there are athletic competitions. It brings out the best in athletes as they strive to win. Are their achievements fake?

You seem to be ascribing to me a position that I do not hold. I don't have a problem with test as a measure. I don't exactly have a problem with tests as a motivational device, either. I have a problem with cramming as a learning technique. I don't think it works very well for actual long-term learning.

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#86

Post by dbt00 »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #82
throwawaygh wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like a bible study, but without the bible. Yeah, exactly. Or hackerspaces. Or OSS. Or presenting at DEFCON. (And, yes, these folks will include this project in their tenure/promotion cases and therefore indirectly benefit professionally even if they don't charge just like in the cases above.) My only real "criticism" of this model is that the people doing this work shouldn't shy away from asking for "tithes"... hum…

Do most people tithe at church?

Even in churches without official tithes, there's a collection plate passed. Operations must be funded, employees need to be fed, housed, clothed.

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#87

Post by civilized »

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #21
civilized wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

That’s just dodging the parents point though, which isn’t the implementation of whatever is in the pages of a text but that the text itself doesn’t get as much discussion intentionally because it’s more relevant than other works that serve as feel good dopamine hits for the intellectual.

Well at least I got this interesting comment out of it!

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#88

Post by throwaway894345 »

dbt00 wrote: post #86
throwaway894345 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do most people tithe at church?

Even in churches without official tithes, there's a collection plate passed. Operations must be funded, employees need to be fed, housed, clothed.

I guess growing up people would toss a few bucks in the collection plate. It wasn’t until I was an adult that I learned that my Dad would write a significant check to the church every month in addition to the few dollars we passed in the plate (we were a blue collar family, but my parents prioritized tithing, which helped to subsidize the school that was affiliated with the church). My understanding is that the plate is not a significant portion of the church’s revenue, but maybe other churches put larger checks into the collection plate.

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#89

Post by Turing_Machine »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #82
throwawaygh wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like a bible study, but without the bible. Yeah, exactly. Or hackerspaces. Or OSS. Or presenting at DEFCON. (And, yes, these folks will include this project in their tenure/promotion cases and therefore indirectly benefit professionally even if they don't charge just like in the cases above.) My only real "criticism" of this model is that the people doing this work shouldn't shy away from asking for "tithes"... hum…

Do most people tithe at church?

In the United States, most churches are open to anyone who wants to come in, but often being a "member" of the church requires providing some form of formal support, such as tithing (members typically have at least some say in church policy, while random congregants do not). Congregants (who may not be official members) also generally add something to the collection plate when it comes around.

Some countries still have "established" churches, which historically received direct government support from tax money (this is not always the case today... while the Church of England is still the "established" church in England, it no longer receives direct taxpayer support). Others may have a group of recognized churches that can receive taxpayer support (Germany is that way, I believe... you declare your religious affiliation, and if it is on the government-approved list, the government tax authorities will collect the tax and remit it to the church).

Re: The Catherine Project: A new experiment in liberal education

#90

Post by Turing_Machine »

telotortium wrote: post #8
hyperman1 wrote: post #3

Can someone explain what Vice-President and Climbing wall mean in the context of higher education? If I had to guess, a Vice-President might be someone who monitors a room full of students or checks their tests, and a Climbing wall might be a hard assignment meant to get rid of less interested students. This might be a really dumb question. In that case, sorry.

It's a sarcastic reference to the fact that in the US, as tuition has gone up far past increase in general cost of living in the past few decades, what actually seems to have been purchased with the increased tuition is greatly increasing the number of administrators ("Vice-Presidents") and improving the on-campus dorm comfort, athletic amenities, etc. ("climbing walls"), rather than paying professors more (in fact,…

> greatly increasing the number of administrators ("Vice-Presidents")

I like to call them "Junior Assistant Vice Sub-Deans", and most academic institutions in the United States are infested with them.

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