This response merely preserves the status quo, which is the thing that Andrew and team have an issue with in the first place. This is not an appropriate circumstance where discretion better serves anyone except for the people who were apparently above moderation.
Rust Moderation Team Resigns
851–860 of 912 posts
Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns
#852Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Mozilla, which is super steeped in SF social justice culture (see the antics of their CEO) Who do you mean? The only Mozilla CEO I can remember being involved in any controversy was Brendan Eich, and that controversy was over his funding a campaign against gay marriage. I can hardly imagine calling that 'social justice culture'. (I'm hoping this comment doesn't summon him, like the last time I mentioned him on here…
Mitchell Baker has repeatedly embarrassed Mozilla and failed in almost every way a CEO can fail. She is very obviously uninterested in Firefox and sees it just as a way to further her own influence amongst the Washington set she wishes she was really a part of. Mozilla not only has a "social justice" culture but openly talks about it all the time: https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/leadership/mozilla-racia... "We gr…
Ah, I'm sorry, I hadn't heard of this. I don't necessarily agree with your political opinions, but I agree that it feels inappropriate to spend Mozilla Foundation funds (which I gather are 98% donated money) on anything other than the Mozilla projects which people obviously expect their money to go to.
Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns
#853Earlier quoted context omitted.
It was 4 people until very recently. But it was only 4 for a long time. It's inaugural size (of which I was a part) was bigger than that. People leave over time and it's hard to get new members. We acknowledged this in our statement. We suggested that the future mod team do a better job recruiting new members than we did.
I very much dislike COCs and overbearing moderation teams in open source communities. Good on you that you didn't publicize anything, that is probably the hardest for you than for anyone else. The Rust leadership doesn't make a good impression to be honest. I like the language itself but it isn't really an open source community I would want to engage in aside from the technical aspects (my involvement is limited in a…
A code of conduct is there so that everyone knows what the rules are, and can refer to them when moderating (including self-moderating) interactions within the community. I'd consider it a big upgrade over when I was in charge of moderating an online community, and formal COCs weren't a common thing yet. The rules, such as they were, were largely informal and unwritten. In consequence, that mod team was very much a star chamber. It wasn't great. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.
Inter-corporate communication is not a good analogy here, because inter-corporate communication can't generally be modeled as a set of individuals freely associating with each other. Their status as representatives of their employers significantly changes the landscape. Companies are generally careful not to install people with less-than-stellar communication skills at their interfaces with other companies in the first place. I suppose the maxim to trot out here is, "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."
Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns
#854Earlier quoted context omitted.
It was 4 people until very recently. But it was only 4 for a long time. It's inaugural size (of which I was a part) was bigger than that. People leave over time and it's hard to get new members. We acknowledged this in our statement. We suggested that the future mod team do a better job recruiting new members than we did.
I very much dislike COCs and overbearing moderation teams in open source communities. Good on you that you didn't publicize anything, that is probably the hardest for you than for anyone else. The Rust leadership doesn't make a good impression to be honest. I like the language itself but it isn't really an open source community I would want to engage in aside from the technical aspects (my involvement is limited in a…
My views on Codes of Conduct are pretty nuanced, and frankly, I learned a long time ago that the Internet cannot handle nuance. I was and still am an enthusiastic supporter of Rust's CoC, but you'll also notice that none of my personal projects have a CoC in them. So from that alone, you might at least surmise that I don't necessarily think CoCs are a universally good idea (or more precisely, "worth it") in literally every situation. Equivalently, I think they are a good idea in some situations. But I'm not going to say much more than that.
> I very much dislike COCs and overbearing moderation teams in open source communities.
Same. And I have avoided some such communities in the past.
But, I am not necessarily against overbearing moderation. For example, r/askhistorians is one of my favorite subreddits, and I would attribute that state to their intense moderation.
Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns
#855Earlier quoted context omitted.
I very much dislike COCs and overbearing moderation teams in open source communities. Good on you that you didn't publicize anything, that is probably the hardest for you than for anyone else. The Rust leadership doesn't make a good impression to be honest. I like the language itself but it isn't really an open source community I would want to engage in aside from the technical aspects (my involvement is limited in a…
My views on Codes of Conduct are pretty nuanced, and frankly, I learned a long time ago that the Internet cannot handle nuance. I was and still am an enthusiastic supporter of Rust's CoC, but you'll also notice that none of my personal projects have a CoC in them. So from that alone, you might at least surmise that I don't necessarily think CoCs are a universally good idea (or more precisely, "worth it") in literally…
Thanks for your answer. The Rust COC is certainly short and concise, which I prefer if we really need them at all that is. There certainly are also situations where moderation can keep things on topic. When I say moderation I mostly mean tone policing or sanctioning certain views, not the removal of spam or memes that dillute a topic, although the latter at some point comes down to opinion too.
I had this 2 star repos for a niche problem with perhaps 2-3 visitors per month and someone quite aggressively suggested that I should put one up. At the same time more an more projects put one up and I wondered where this push in OSS came from.
Suddenly projects needed committees to enforce some form of weird compliance. I just think it didn't improve conduct in any community that I saw. Not that you have to look very far to find eccentric personalities but I never thought that to be a problem, on the contrary.
Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns
#856Who would want to see Rust move to a DAO on blockchain? I can help make that happen. ray@oblivion.io
Since so many blockchain projects are using Rust and the community is struggling perhaps moving it to a DAO is the way to reboot things and create a more democratic and transparent experience for all.
LMK.
Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns
#857Earlier quoted context omitted.
Of course it is. What if a contributor is harassing another team member? What if he/she is being openly racist/sexist/etc.?
I have yet to see significant sexism/racism in open source, but I have seen an insurmountable amount of drama, bad behavior, prosecution and prejudice from people proclaiming to fight against it.
It's more about people vanishing or losing their marbles.
Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns
#858Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have yet to see significant sexism/racism in open source, but I have seen an insurmountable amount of drama, bad behavior, prosecution and prejudice from people proclaiming to fight against it.
The author of the message is BurntSushi. I have seen him communicate multiple times before and he seems to be a reasonable and intelligent person. I cannot imagine that this action is frivolous.
I believe it. I don't think it is a significant problem in OSS that we suddenly need behavior rules but there can still be instances of something like that occurring. The most convincing action was to not release details in my opinion.
Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns
#859Earlier quoted context omitted.
You searched "Rust" and "Drama", this is not exactly compelling. First comment is referring to something that happened years ago. Second comment isn't about Rust at all. Third post is about Steve not liking something that came out of Amazon. Reading on it appears to be more references to Actix, Amazon, totally unrelated/ irrelevant results, etc.
No kidding. It’s not a curated dataset, obviously. I looked through a few pages and filtered out the most recent few actual dramas: 1) Rust in the Linux kernel 2) Amazon MUST NOT define Rust 3) Turbofish issue So, yeah, you have to do a bit more work to pull events from Algolia. It’s better than a feeling though and it’s real timestamped data. It’s not Google or Wikipedia though- the most relevant results aren’t just…
I don't think it's better than a feeling? Like, just a quick scan shows the same few things or totally unrelated content.
Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns
#860Earlier quoted context omitted.
At a minimum, a public resignation has to say what it's in reaction to.
So no public resignations for people who are expected to not reveal details. So I guess "the entire moderation team has resigned and nobody says anything about it" is clearly the better the option?
There's nothing stopping you from doing it that way; it's just not very effective. A public resignation is usually designed to call attention to a problem, and trigger changes. If you don't say what the problems are with any specificity, it doesn't work as well.