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Rust Moderation Team Resigns

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Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#791

Post by vegai_ »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #197
quotemstr wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But seems like there is a new drama every week That's what happens when you elevate micromanagement of language to a task of equal or greater importance than the creation of code.

What a strange way of looking at it. At any functioning company, toxic employees get fired because the cost of them pushing out other employees is usually higher than the cost of firing them. Open source projects do not hire and fire people but do have the ability to censure toxic contributors. I know nothing about this particular case, but the general idea of moderating contributors to a project is not wacky as you…

And at many seemingly functioning companies, toxic executives keep their jobs as long as they're keeping a large enough amount of their peers happy.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#792

Post by vegai_ »

Angius wrote: post #629
dbt00 wrote: post #622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She's not?

You're right, seems I was misinformed and didn't do as much reading as I had to. Edited my comment to stop the misinformation from propagating.

What misinformation? https://www.rust-lang.org/governance/teams/core

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#793

Post by flippinburgers »

Jensson wrote: post #179
busterarm wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually the opposite. In a repeat of what happened previously in the NPM community, people are asking for the CoC to actually be enforced _because of_ identity politics, rather than associating CoCs with identity politics. Going around saying things like "Kill all men" is just about as obvious as a CoC violation can get. Additionally, having members of the same governance body that are romantically involved pro…

"The core team refused to kick out a misandrist member" would lead to a lot of drama if they said it publicly. If that is why they are quitting then it makes sense that they refused to say anything about it.

https://archive.fo/f10KK

I guess the speculation is around whether or not she is the core member that might be causing friction with the coc.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#794

Post by dralley »

worik wrote: post #607
jcranmer wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Zero people in the real world avoided using the Linux kernel because Linus was brusque. Actually, the best example of a project where the leadership of the project was so toxic as to drive away potential contributors would probably be glibc under Ulrich Drepper, which got so bad that most distributions abandoned glibc for the eglibc fork. (See https://lwn.net/Articles/488847/ for a high-level discussion).

NetBSD -> OpenBSD I know very little about NetBSD and am a great fan of OpenBSD. But Theo is a very horrible person who often attacks people in a personal way for disagreeing with him. I got into a stupid argument with him over fundraising - a subject where I have deep experience - and it was quite bizarre. He had a set of assumptions and disagreeing with them got abuse from him, and some of his minions on the OpenBS…

And FreeBSD -> DragonflyBSD. Same story.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#795

Post by therealcamino »

asoneth wrote: post #101

Is there any good way to craft a message like this? If they outlined specific issues then it would invariably devolve into armchair quarterbacking of those issues rather than the the underlying question of what kinds of checks-and-balances should exist for the Core Team -- gossip, accusations, and political discussions are a lot more fun than debating governance structures. On the other hand, if no specific issues ar…

At a minimum, a public resignation has to say what it's in reaction to.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#796

Post by vegai_ »

zemo wrote: post #377
azth wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a difference between how very bold Linus was with his insults to today's "cocs" which makes people walk on eggshells being too afraid to say or insinuate something that may be perceived as "incorrect".

Here is the Rust code of conduct: https://www.rust-lang.org/policies/code-of-conduct Can you provide an example of something in the code of conduct that you think makes people walk on eggshells?

The Rust community is famous for being friendly. This means that people who are not good at being friendly are being careful what they say there, or have left that space.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#797

Post by [deleted] »

secondcoming wrote: post #516
neuronexmachina wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm reminded of this mid-2000s example of toxic behavior from Richard Stallman on Emacs, in response to a contributor who didn't have time to work on something because he just had a baby girl: https://tess.oconnor.cx/2005/04/rms > It doesn’t take special talents to reproduce—even plants can do it. On the other hand, contributing to a program like Emacs takes real skill. That is really something to be proud of. > It h…

I found that quite funny.

[deleted]

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#798

Post by hderms »

s_m wrote: post #111
stackedinserter wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Examples? EDIT: it's remarkable that there's none, aside of "someone said something"

Scala's community has a reputation for toxicity. I don't write Scala, so I don't know how deserved this is, but nevertheless the reputation exists.

I'd say there's a fair amount of public drama but the actual community is pretty chill nowadays i.e. gitter and the like

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#799

Post by detaro »

therealcamino wrote: post #795
asoneth wrote: post #101

Is there any good way to craft a message like this? If they outlined specific issues then it would invariably devolve into armchair quarterbacking of those issues rather than the the underlying question of what kinds of checks-and-balances should exist for the Core Team -- gossip, accusations, and political discussions are a lot more fun than debating governance structures. On the other hand, if no specific issues ar…

At a minimum, a public resignation has to say what it's in reaction to.

So no public resignations for people who are expected to not reveal details. So I guess "the entire moderation team has resigned and nobody says anything about it" is clearly the better the option?

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#800

Post by zionic »

worik wrote: post #575
devmunchies wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in my short experience in software (7 years), it almost feels like there is more drama when a CoC mod team is involved. without a mod team, you will still boot trolls or resolve a dispute. I think it's better to have a judge who can step in and resolve a situation than proactive police when it comes to OSS moderation.

Depends on your POV My POV is one of privilege (I hate that word and concept, but it fits here). Being part of the majority most of the ways you can slice IT - except I am older but that one was a change! In other fields I was made aware of what it is like to be part of other groups, and it can suck. I got married. My spouse took me on a tour playing "spot the detective". They got followed around shops in a way that…

> mod teams are a very important part of making the community a good place, making the community a good place is crucial for making the technology good.

Moderation teams are the cultural equivalent of a code smell.

The role of moderation is strictly to remove spam and move off-topic chit chat to the off topic bin. The expanded post-modern role of “moderation” is inherently toxic and degrading.

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