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Rust Moderation Team Resigns

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Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#831

Post by M2Ys4U »

throwawaygh wrote: post #279
tzs wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With most OSS projects nowadays I don't think you have to use a mailing list or anything that would have an MOTD in order to contribute. Contributions nowadays are often done entirely through the repository, so it makes sense to put in them the things that people contemplating contribution should be cognizant of. Repositories for most projects are more project repositories than mere code repositories.

> Repositories for most projects are more project repositories than mere code repositories. Indeed, but for some reason it still feels odd. I've acknowledged I'm getting old, right? ;-) Also, there is some rational justification to my feeling. It used to be that you might kick-ban someone from a channel or /dev/null their mailing list contributions. But if they made a technically meritorious merge request via SCM the…

The assumption here is that any violation of the Code of Conduct would result in the offender being instantly kicked out, right?

But there are other ways to deal with actions that go against a code of conduct, to de-escalate situations and encourage rehabilitation within the project - just like what a healthy project would do without an explicit code of conduct.

Because let's be honest - those hobby groups you're talking about almost certainly did have a code of conduct, but it was probably implicit and uncodified.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#832

Post by tcard »

stouset wrote: post #653
pg_1234 wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like the people trying to play social politics had a hissy fit because they couldn't control the people doing the actual work. Fantastic.

You might care to notice that the resignation was announced by Andrew Gallant—more commonly known as BurntSushi[1]—who is one of the most well-respected, talented, and prolific contributors in the wider Rust community. Amongst other things, they are the author of ripgrep[2], the regex[3] crate, and the byteorder[4] crate. They have multiple projects which are amongst the most-downloaded crates[5] in the Rust ecosyste…

He's also a prominent contributor to the Go ecosystem.

https://github.com/BurntSushi/toml

https://github.com/BurntSushi/xgb

https://github.com/BurntSushi/wingo

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#833

Post by reshlo »

jbjohns wrote: post #821
jacquesm wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll give that the benefit of the doubt, but if that is the case then Rust is dead because if the core team can't be trusted to handle something like this then probably Rust as an experiment has failed, you won't get further corporates taking a gamble on Rust if this sort of cloud is hanging over the core team.

Well I think Amazon has a vested interest in the language at this point. Does the core team even matter that much now? If the core team falls apart could Amazon not simply pick up the reins? It doesn't seem to have hurt C# or Swift to be driven by a company.

There have been many points of friction in the history of C# and Swift caused by company-driven goals influencing the development of the language ecosystem in ways that some of their communities disagreed with. Leaving that aside, those languages were purpose-built by those companies for their use. Amazon didn’t create Rust, and it’s hard to imagine a hostile takeover would be received well.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#834

Post by M2Ys4U »

zionic wrote: post #802
OOPMan wrote: post #737

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turns out asshole can make good software! It's almost as though software development skills aren't correlated with social skills...

Sounds like an argument to keep the feels police out of software dev. We have significant, documented evidence of assholes producing world changing software. We can’t do the same for the inverse personality type, can we? I’d rather have amazing open source free software than the validation of a blue check mark.

> Sounds like an argument to keep the feels police out of software dev.

Not unless you discount the idea that it could be even better software if those people hadn't been turned away...

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#835

Post by M2Ys4U »

Angius wrote: post #574
ferdowsi wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely, yes. A growing community needs healthy management in order to avoid reputational damage to the core language. There's no shortage of guidance to "stay away from X tech because the community is toxic and non-serious"

> A growing community needs healthy management Like this person being the executive director? https://archive.fo/f10KK

That person is no longer the (interim) executive director. In fact the Foundation decided to go without anybody filling the post for a couple of months instead of them until they found a permanent replacement - which they did just days ago.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#836

Post by tialaramex »

BoorishBears wrote: post #807
tialaramex wrote: post #742

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have some examples of MISRA rules you think would need "a very specific subset of Rust" rather than for example, #![forbid(unused)] to obey MISRA's rejection of unused stuff ? A lot of MISRA is concerned with defects in C - or in its standard library and the usual C idiom - that simply aren't present in Rust and so need zero work to eliminate. For example MISRA forbids trigraphs. Rust of course doesn't have tr…

I think you're understimating how far MISRA goes. Rules about identifiers for example, no shadowing, explicit typing only, no unused declarations etc. Rust might get the big stuff but MISRA is adhered to exactly in contexts where things that would be "nitpicky" or over-opinionated for a general use language improve safety. Pure Rust would never be a replacement for that without additional static analysis.

I asked you for some example rules, and you provided some

> Rules about identifiers for example, no shadowing, explicit typing only, no unused declarations etc.

#![forbid(clippy::shadow_reuse)]

... is a Clippy lint denying shadowing to re-use variables. There are a couple more Clippy lints to deny other types of shadowing. Whether all, some or none of these are actually a good idea depends whether your goal is to just do what MISRA says no matter, or actually write better code.

#![forbid(clippy::default_numeric_fallback)]

... is a lint requiring that you specifically say what type numbers are rather than relying on the inference to conclude they're i32 if there's no reason they should be anything else.

#![forbid(unused)]

... I already mentioned, it outright forbids your code from not using things, function parameters, variables, whatever.

If anything I'd say the contrary is true, people overestimate what MISRA achieves, big chunks of it could be summarised as "Don't do things that are obviously a terrible idea". I suppose this might help to rein in some "Real programmer" types at an embedded systems firm using C by giving their manager a tool that says e.g. no, actually redefining size_t is not a clever trick, but it means all those rules are entirely irrelevant for any modern language, not just Rust.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#837

Post by M2Ys4U »

bogwog wrote: post #420

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me like any time there's a controversy surrounding code of conducts (and just bad behavior in general) with open source projects, it's always on Github. Conversations on Gitlab by comparison always feel a lot more serious and professional. That could just be due to numbers, since Github has way more people. The low barrier of entry to Github probably also contributes, since it attract…

> Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me like any time there's a controversy surrounding code of conducts (and just bad behavior in general) with open source projects, it's always on Github. Conversations on Gitlab by comparison always feel a lot more serious and professional.

That sounds like classic selection bias to me.

There are more projects on GitHub than GitLab so if the probability of any one project generating drama is the same between projects, one would expect more drama to come out of GitHub.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#838

Post by M2Ys4U »

na85 wrote: post #633

Can someone explain why the development of a computer programming language needs "mod teams" and other stuff? I don't use Rust; does Rust aspire to also be a social network or something? It seems to me, from my outsider's perspective, that Rust has a lot of bureaucracy for bureaucracy's sake. The "teams" directory [0] has two pages worth of files, which I assume are sub-team membership lists? Good grief. [0] https://…

> Can someone explain why the development of a computer programming language needs "mod teams" and other stuff?

>I don't use Rust; does Rust aspire to also be a social network or something?

Because this development is done by people. Those people need to communicate and coordinate in an effective way, including with people outside of the immediate development effort (i.e. not just writing code).

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#839

Post by hoseja »

loeg wrote: post #142
babyblueblanket wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might be that they cannot censure the offending member in any capacity, due to their core team member status. In that case, resignation is the only thing they have to effectively rebuke behavior.

Public shaming by respected community members is probably somewhat effective. However, they chose not to do that here. Without knowing more, I have to trust their judgment. But I recognize that it’s unsatisfying.

I don't understand, why would you trust the judgement of volunteer moderators instead of core technical people?
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