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Rust Moderation Team Resigns

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Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#771

Post by throwaway894345 »

omegaworks wrote: post #743
throwaway894345 wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only a small minority of Americans-- including ~80% of black Americans --even accept your framing of the problem. In particular, by all appearances, police shootings aren't unequally distributed by race when we account for even the most obvious relevant factors (e.g., violent crime rates), but your whole framing depends on this. In other words, if this isn't true, then the Republicans and a significant minority (if n…

"Framing" is irrelevant to my statement. I provided concrete evidence of the two mainstream political parties doing exactly what I said they were doing. How a particular slogan like "defund the police" polls is not relevant to the impact of moving $193 billion annual local dollars of police funding to better structured, community-centered alternatives. Conflating evidence-based policy goals and research with how peop…

> I provided concrete evidence of the two mainstream political parties doing exactly what I said they were doing.

Your first article (from Buzzfeed of all places) didn't demonstrate a white nationalist agenda, and if you think the second article supports your point (that Biden is content with whatever white nationalism exists within the Republican party) then I'm not sure we read the same article. The article I read clearly depicts Joe Biden's views that America needs two political parties, that American politics should revert back to the more functional pre-Trump years (and presumably before the alleged mainstreaming of white nationalism that you purport), and that Republicans who want to stay Republicans should do so while voting for Biden. None of that seems controversial at all.

> How a particular slogan like "defund the police" polls is not relevant to the impact of moving $193 billion annual local dollars of police funding to better structured, community-centered alternatives.

You don't think it's a problem that Black Americans overwhelmingly reject policies (as well as rhetoric and ideology) that are purportedly in their interest?

> Conflating evidence-based policy goals and research with how people feel about them in the current present moment is classic misdirection.

"Defund/abolish the police" policy goals aren't evidence based. If you'd like to retreat to the moderate position that we should increase social services while reforming policing, then welcome to the moderate club.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#773

Post by najtdale »

m0zg wrote: post #768
nouveaux wrote: post #755

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't Guido resign due to politics[0]? I think politics is an issue of organization size more so than structure. [0] https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-committers/2018-Jul...

Linus was also nearly driven out by "activists". Best I can tell he never actually said or did anything egregious - his European directness and sense of humor just upset some particularly fragile folks on the mailing list, and so did his refusal to grovel before them. That said burntsushi at least doesn't seem like an activist to me, so the grievances are probably legitimate. Coming from someone less prominent they'd…

I remember a person from current Rust's core team cheering when that person thought Linus is getting ousted from the project.

I take Linux organizational model over Rust's every day. A group of super competent people with no bullshit policy. It is proven. The problem is how to form the successor to the dictator.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#774

Post by [deleted] »

throwaway19937 wrote: post #691
tharne wrote: post #562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On average I've found projects with explicit CoC's to be more toxic than those projects without Coc's.

This could be Berkson's paradox ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkson%27s_paradox ) in action. Larger projects probably have more toxicity than smaller projects and are more likely to have a CoC. The result is that the two factors appear to be correlated even if they are independent variables.

[deleted]

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#775

Post by klabb3 »

ferdowsi wrote: post #48
randyrand wrote: post #32

Programming Language authors love to formalize everything , but did Rust really need all of these rules and moderators to begin with?

Absolutely, yes. A growing community needs healthy management in order to avoid reputational damage to the core language. There's no shortage of guidance to "stay away from X tech because the community is toxic and non-serious"

> There's no shortage of guidance to "stay away from X tech because the community is toxic and non-serious"

Absolutely, but the remedy is often worse than the illness. Codifying good behavior - and in particular policing language - tends to become a bureaucratic and endless black-hole project that sucks up all energy and resources, no matter the justification. There is no shortage of moralists in this world. A common misconception is that by declaring you are against toxicity, you cannot yourself be toxic. In reality, there is no such silver bullet.

Toxic behavior is either deliberate or unconscious. If you want to be an asshole, there's plenty of room within the guidelines - it thrives within wokeness, meritocracies and BDFL-run projects alike. And if you don't think you're an asshole, not even the best CoC will change your mind. There's no shortcut here, you have to confront people directly with concrete criticism, and allow them to change, or in rare cases remove them.

For instance, Linus toned his style down after realizing the effect it had on people, not from reading the sacred CoC scrolls. In fact, I have never seen or heard anyone who has meaningfully changed their behavior from a CoC.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#776

Post by b3morales »

bluGill wrote: post #628
cbm-vic-20 wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vast majority of open source projects do not create their own open source license- most of them choose from a relatively small selection of widely used licenses (GPL, BSD, MIT, Apache, etc.). Why then do so many project choose to roll their own CoC? I'd expect that there would also be a relatively small handful of widely used CoCs to choose from, and a project could pick based on their projects' needs.

I'm on a tiny project without a CoC because I don't know how to enforce it if we had one. Enforce means it needs to apply to me, and also whoever enforces it needs to be active to watch for issues. I wish KDE/Gnome/other big project would just do a CoC as a service for tiny projects. For the most part the CoC should be standard, and a few experts to enforce it would be better than random enforcement. (note I have no…

I don't think you can really have good moderation of a stable group without the moderators being members of the group themselves -- and known and trusted/viewed positively by a majority. Otherwise they'll just be perceived as jerk outsiders who swoop in to make more trouble than they solve. And they will face constant pushback and non-compliance.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#777

Post by b3morales »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #652
b3morales wrote: post #511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, it's walking a tightrope. But they do put this at the end (on the Reddit post[0], not GitHub): > we wish to ... focus on Constructive Criticism: how to improve the state of things, moving forward. > There are many potential topics that are worth exploring: > What should the Rust Governance look like? > How should the Rust Moderation Team be structured? What should be its responsibilities? > How can we e…

> and I don't see how these can be meaningfully discussed by someone who doesn't know what went wrong. The "what went wrong" appears to be an organizational dispute, at least if we're to believe the statement. Moderation team wanted authority over the core team. Core team disagreed. Moderation team resigned. It's not clear that there was a violation, though their intentional vagueness does tend to push the reader to…

I hope it is as straightforward as that. But that's still not something that outsiders can see and help with.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#778

Post by stillicidious »

dathinab wrote: post #446
hintymad wrote: post #368

Curious, why did a project of programming language hire a multi-person moderation team in the first place? That's the OSS version of HR? Or is it equivalent to a team of diversity and inclusion?

> hire Not hired, but voluntary. > moderation team in the first place Because a community of any larger size needs moderation (small communities tend to self moderate, larger communities without any form of moderation are at serve risk of becoming toxic and/or unwelcoming places). > OSS version of HR Oversimplified it's a Team which steps in when the Code of Conduct is (potentially) violated to moderate (i.e. resolve…

> it's a Team which steps in when the Code of Conduct is (potentially) violated to moderate (i.e. resolve) the situation with the goal of keeping the community open, friendly and well coming

And how would you describe HR?

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#779

Post by najtdale »

teddyh wrote: post #513
Shoue wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What random accusations am I "spreading so wildly"? The fact that Stallman is being accused of various kinds of sexual misconduct is a fact. I did not anywhere claim they were true. I'm pointing it out because it makes the points above stand on shakier ground. The article you shared also fails to defend many of the accusations against Stallman and completely ignores them, for example the "Emacs virgin girl" situation…

Technically, what you did was to insinuate, not directly accuse. Which one is worse? Since you seem to have a great interest in this, do have any concrete reference to the “Emacs virgin” situation? I have only a vague recollection that Stallman was referring to anyone who had not used Emacs yet as an “Emacs virgin”, and some people took it as meaning some kind of sex thing. (Any other references to the “many of the a…

There are so many snowflakes in the tech world right now. Horrible.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#780

Post by systemvoltage »

eropple wrote: post #604
thegrimmest wrote: post #549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. People make themselves angry, people choose to take offense. The reasonable thing to do is not allow yourself to be provoked to upset or anger by someone else's communication. People you disagree with are easy to ignore, even if you find their opinions loathsome.

"Just ignore people seeking to harm you specifically and severally" has historically been poor practice. And it's almost always advocated by people who have the upper hand in their own exchanges. Which is fascinating, isn't it?

Quite the opposite. Offense is taken usually by people that want power.

As someone said, reasonably, that we have a system of law and order. If someone threatens you with violence, call the police.

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