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Rust Moderation Team Resigns

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Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#741

Post by kazinator »

folkrav wrote: post #679
kazinator wrote: post #661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why would I continue with your project Because I have important stuff in my life that depends on it; business, workflows at work, IT infrastructure, ...

If it's that important to you, it's likely in a professional setting, isn't it? I'd say most CoCs are perfectly reasonable, and you usually have to go out of your way to cross them in a professional software development environment.

> it's likely in a professional setting, isn't it?

Not necessarily!

> usually have to go out of your way to cross them in a professional software development environment

I believe this subthread is about the situation of some example hypothetical person being a user of a project in which there are "bad" things going on (whether or not there is a CoC in place that is being violated).

This user is not the one perpetrating abuse.

Say that user reports some problem and is treated abusively or whatever. Or just learns about that kind of thing going on in the project, and disagrees with it.

So question is, why would that user continue to use such a project.

Well, there is the answer: people depend on stuff in ways that they just can't drop it because of someone's behavior.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#742

Post by tialaramex »

BoorishBears wrote: post #694
tialaramex wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ignoring things like MISRA Not so much ignoring, as recognising that much of what MISRA requires mechanically (ie that MISRA tools will let you check for a Continuous Integration setup automatically) is baked into Rust itself, and much of what MISRA asks beyond that is built into Rust's way of doing things. My favourite this week: MISRA tells you never to use the result of an assignment operator. In Rust you can't…

MISRA goes further than Rust can and still be a widely useful language. You'd need to define a very specific subset of Rust to approach its level of regulation and the additional layers added by ISO standards where it's often used

Do you have some examples of MISRA rules you think would need "a very specific subset of Rust" rather than for example, #![forbid(unused)] to obey MISRA's rejection of unused stuff ?

A lot of MISRA is concerned with defects in C - or in its standard library and the usual C idiom - that simply aren't present in Rust and so need zero work to eliminate. For example MISRA forbids trigraphs. Rust of course doesn't have trigraphs.

A bunch more is stuff Rust warns about, that you can tell it to outright forbid, such as #![forbid(unused)] to obey various MISRA rules about using things.

In a few places MISRA obliges you to either squint hard at the rules, or agree that it is contradictory and you must grant yourself a deviation from the rules, while Rust just solves the underlying conundrum entirely. For example MISRA wants exhaustive matching, it has rules for switches to try to achieve that but in the process it introduces dead code it has already forbidden. Rust only has exhaustive matching anyway - if your match compiles it was exhaustive - thus there is no need to introduce dead code "just in case".

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#743

Post by omegaworks »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #539
omegaworks wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a political environment where one party openly allies with those that seek a white ethnostate[1] and the other sees a compromise solution that normalizes and rationalizes the existence of its opposition[2], the fair and equal application of the law is not just partisan, it is increasingly countercultural. 1. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/josephbernstein/heres-h... 2. https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/12/…

Only a small minority of Americans-- including ~80% of black Americans --even accept your framing of the problem. In particular, by all appearances, police shootings aren't unequally distributed by race when we account for even the most obvious relevant factors (e.g., violent crime rates), but your whole framing depends on this. In other words, if this isn't true, then the Republicans and a significant minority (if n…

"Framing" is irrelevant to my statement. I provided concrete evidence of the two mainstream political parties doing exactly what I said they were doing.

How a particular slogan like "defund the police" polls is not relevant to the impact of moving $193 billion annual local dollars of police funding to better structured, community-centered alternatives.

Conflating evidence-based policy goals and research with how people feel about them in the current present moment is classic misdirection.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#744

Post by sgift »

strunz wrote: post #518
hintymad wrote: post #368

Curious, why did a project of programming language hire a multi-person moderation team in the first place? That's the OSS version of HR? Or is it equivalent to a team of diversity and inclusion?

People have made fun of Linux having Linus as the dictator on top, but it seems like that model might be the best for long term project success...

Postgres has a core team, FreeBSD has one, C++ has a steering committee. You can find examples for whatever variant of governance you want. The "one person calls all the shots" model certainly can work. It can also fail and it often has (usually when said person has no interest anymore, but no successor is available or has the clout needed to succeed them).

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#745

Post by viro »

rStar wrote: post #660
surrealize wrote: post #618

Some interesting context from one of the resigning mod team members: https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/qzme1z/moderation_tea...

how is it interesting?

Because it effectively confirms that the mod team wanted to be able to set and enforce CoC rules on the core team. If the core team can set CoC rules they can't effectively be moderated since they can change the rules.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#746

Post by smarnach »

politician wrote: post #682
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's possible that there were CoC violations that they were not able to moderate, that the actions available to them were limited (e.g., they would have initiated a ban but they were not able to ban a core team member), that a core team member intervened to prevent effective moderation, or that the core team prevented the mod team from being able to access official core team channels in order to moderate. It's not…

This kind of drama is already a defining feature of the Rust community. They can’t go 6 months without some kind of incident like this. It would be a positive if they could have a BDFL or corporate sponsorship to structure the community going forward because it doesn’t seem like the current community approach really works in practice. I realize that’s probably not possible at this point though.. unless maybe Microsof…

I don't think the Rust community is particularly prone to public drama. What other events are you thinking of?

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#748

Post by kzrdude »

junon wrote: post #736
kzrdude wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C++ does also not have a compiler team nor any C++ day-to-day development team.

Sure it does, just not one centralized one. LLVM and GCC are very actively maintained and both main teams have many active C++ committee members. Unless you want to split hairs and argue semantics, they are the closest thing to a day-to-day development team and are quite underappreciated if you ask me.

I appreciate them but that's also the difference between Rust and C++ - the implementations are separable from the language itself. GCC is not C++ and vice versa.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#749

Post by peoplefromibiza »

Shoue wrote: post #173
quotemstr wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterexample: Linux, GCC, Python, and practically the entire free software ecosystem from before the current crazy for hall-monitory-y supervision from above. It is simply demonstrably, factually, clearly not true that a growing community needs the kind of structures that Rust imposed on itself. It really makes me sad that a certain kind of person these days sees some kind of censorious overlord as essential for th…

Linux with Linus, who famously had to change his abusive tone? GCC with Richard Stallman, accused of various kinds of sexual misconduct? Python, which felt it necessary to impose a CoC eventually? Your counter examples are questionable at best.

> accused of various kinds of sexual misconduct

I don't think this is a fair counter example, he's been accused for expressing personal opinions, on his personal blog.

The accusations led to nothing.

Linus changed his tones just recently, now that he's older and have children, the "previous version" of Linus brought Linux to where it is though.

He's still very harsh when things get highly technical, because he's one of the few people that know at heart what's best for Linux.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#750

Post by OOPMan »

canaus wrote: post #672
FeepingCreature wrote: post #631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Call me crazy, but I believe that you don't have to actively champion and invite openly racist people to conferences to show that you tolerate difference of opinion. Sure you don't have to, but if you do, it's a hell of a signal. (At any rate, Curtis Yarvin was invited for his semi-esoteric functional-based distributed operating platform, Urbit.) > If you're protecting personnel, even after a number of others in yo…

No, I think someone should be *excluded* from talking at a conference because they literally write Eugenics theory, regardless of the brackets, semicolons and spaces they write in a text editor. It sounds like we just have a difference in moral standards.

Since moral standards vary a lot across cultures and time, statements like your last line have dubious longevity.

Even when it comes to unpleasant people like Moldbug I try to avoid talk of moral standards beyond the really clear-cut ones...

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