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Rust Moderation Team Resigns

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Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#171

Post by sp332 »

znpy wrote: post #119
tinco wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, an immature drama would have people slinging feces. This is a highly mature drama where the arguments are dry, generic and adhere to a strict code of values. No fingers were pointed, and the offended party is taking the high road by resigning. It's not often that people behave in a mature fashion, so I fully understand you did not recognise it for what it is.

You call it mature but an outsider would have no idea about what's happening. I have no way of forming an idea whether it's utter bs or if there is something actually going wrong.

This is a message from the moderation team to the Rust community that they've been moderating about the core devs. I would not expect it to be intelligible let alone accessible to "outsiders".

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#172

Post by greenhatman »

praveenperera wrote: post #64

I love Rust. Its the language I use most these days. But seems like there is a new drama every week with the core team and community.

I suspect any popular technology will have drama in the communities surrounding it. Anything high value will have power struggles around it.

Same happened with Node as it gained popularity.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#173

Post by Shoue »

quotemstr wrote: post #89
ferdowsi wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely, yes. A growing community needs healthy management in order to avoid reputational damage to the core language. There's no shortage of guidance to "stay away from X tech because the community is toxic and non-serious"

Counterexample: Linux, GCC, Python, and practically the entire free software ecosystem from before the current crazy for hall-monitory-y supervision from above. It is simply demonstrably, factually, clearly not true that a growing community needs the kind of structures that Rust imposed on itself. It really makes me sad that a certain kind of person these days sees some kind of censorious overlord as essential for th…

Linux with Linus, who famously had to change his abusive tone? GCC with Richard Stallman, accused of various kinds of sexual misconduct? Python, which felt it necessary to impose a CoC eventually?

Your counter examples are questionable at best.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#174

Post by throwawaygh »

couchand wrote: post #157
throwawaygh wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yea, sorry, I tend to over-use the "edit" button and treat "submit" as "save draft". > How exactly are the groups of people working on various parts of the official ecosystem supposed to coordinate their efforts? The only alternative I've seen is a benevolent dictator, which seems significantly worse for a number of reasons. Yeah, I guess I'm just getting old. The idea of an open source project with enough people to…

It's our industry that's getting old. You used to be able to start a big project like a compiler or a browser and have some hope of producing a functional result "organically" (for lack of a better word). But we've reached the point where we're no longer just scrabbling together hovels with scrap wood, we're trying to build the Pyramids or the Hoover Dam now. A few anonymous internet denizens are not going to be able…

Sure. And I dislike corporate BS but happily work in corporations as long as I can mostly get away with nothing but the most surface-level acknowledgment that the shit does indeed smell like roses. (And like 90+% of what HR enforces is mostly good anyways; pretending it's not a facade is often a small price to pay for the level of nonsense I'm shielded from)

Again, I'm not even necessarily saying things should be different or proposing a better alternative. Just expressing a feeling.

If could change one thing in the corporate world, it wouldn't be to change how corporations work. Simply disabusing people of fantasies about how corporations work would be far better than any incremental improvement.

I guess I feel the same way about OSS codes of conduct. They're facade. To the extent that they're enforced, it's because the wizard behind the CoC curtain allows this to the case.

Should anything be changed? IDK, but everyone understanding this would probably be preferable to any incremental change to project governance. If that makes sense.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#175

Post by jmeister »

mjburgess wrote: post #86

Absent some form of democracy, what does it mean for a leadership to be "accountable"? Power extends from whoever has the authority to hold others to account. So this just reads like a power-grab from the moderation team. What would it mean for them to have the power to hold the core team to account? That they could sack people from it? The goals of the project are set by the core team; not by a moderation team enfor…

In these cases, you are supposed to automatically align with the less powerful.

People don’t distinguish between earned power(authority ) and unearned power anymore.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#176

Post by zozbot234 »

babyblueblanket wrote: post #145
bruce343434 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my personal experience such statements are pretty rare actually.

In my personal experience such statements are actually not rare among specific minorities, and only in spaces between those minorities. They will never be said in a public way, because it makes them targets. I've been pulled aside by fellow minorities and warned against communities I had expressed interest in in the past, always in private in confidential spaces.

But what you're saying is that people will disagree about what communities are "toxic and non-serious". I might think that, e.g. much of the blockchain space easily matches that sort of description, but it would be harder to say whether that's a majority or minority viewpoint.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#177

Post by cannabis_sam »

pjc50 wrote: post #55
scandox wrote: post #16

> In this message, we have avoided airing specific grievances beyond unaccountability. We've chosen to maintain discretion and confidentiality. We recommend that the broader Rust community and the future Mod Team exercise extreme skepticism of any statements by the Core Team (or members thereof) claiming to illuminate the situation. Isn't that a kind of scorched earth statement? I read it as "we will be discreet and…

It's the opposite: it's a "we refuse to drag this drama out into the public sphere" statement.

It’s more of a “let’s allude to problematic behavior, without actually explaining it, so we can fuel a maximal amount of speculation, and also let’s throw in some hot-button, culture wars issues, just to spice up the discussion”

I mean, I agree that their intentions were probably more like what you wrote, but the resulting effect is far worse than if some shitty behavior from someone in the rust core team had become public knowledge…

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#178

Post by dralley »

quotemstr wrote: post #89
ferdowsi wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely, yes. A growing community needs healthy management in order to avoid reputational damage to the core language. There's no shortage of guidance to "stay away from X tech because the community is toxic and non-serious"

Counterexample: Linux, GCC, Python, and practically the entire free software ecosystem from before the current crazy for hall-monitory-y supervision from above. It is simply demonstrably, factually, clearly not true that a growing community needs the kind of structures that Rust imposed on itself. It really makes me sad that a certain kind of person these days sees some kind of censorious overlord as essential for th…

...I think many people would disagree with you about Linux. And perhaps GCC as well.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#179

Post by Jensson »

busterarm wrote: post #156
foldr wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not seeing any connection between the linked discussions and identity politics, and I'm certainly not seeing any connection with Brendan Eich. Hopefully not every thread that involves reference to a CoC has to automatically turn in to a grievance bin for people who have a bone to pick with identity politics.

It's actually the opposite. In a repeat of what happened previously in the NPM community, people are asking for the CoC to actually be enforced _because of_ identity politics, rather than associating CoCs with identity politics. Going around saying things like "Kill all men" is just about as obvious as a CoC violation can get. Additionally, having members of the same governance body that are romantically involved pro…

"The core team refused to kick out a misandrist member" would lead to a lot of drama if they said it publicly. If that is why they are quitting then it makes sense that they refused to say anything about it.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#180

Post by criddell »

q1w2 wrote: post #85
u320 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure but there is no way for us to know who the wrongdoer is in this case.

Why do we care? Are we in middle school? We are professionals - I'm not going to get involved in playground politics.

Yet here you are getting involved.
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