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Rust Moderation Team Resigns

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Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#561
post #207

> The Rust Moderation Team (Andre, Andrew and Matthieu) Is the Rust mod team really just 3 people? I'm really surprised to see this coming from Rust. I've viewed Rust's governance as one of the best amongst open source projects. Coincidentally we have very recently put together a mod team in Nim[1] that is significantly larger than just 3, it would be really great to hear more details so we can learn from this. 1 - h…

It was 4 people until very recently. But it was only 4 for a long time. It's inaugural size (of which I was a part) was bigger than that. People leave over time and it's hard to get new members.

We acknowledged this in our statement. We suggested that the future mod team do a better job recruiting new members than we did.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#562

Programming Language authors love to formalize everything , but did Rust really need all of these rules and moderators to begin with?

Absolutely, yes. A growing community needs healthy management in order to avoid reputational damage to the core language. There's no shortage of guidance to "stay away from X tech because the community is toxic and non-serious"

On average I've found projects with explicit CoC's to be more toxic than those projects without Coc's.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it is. What if a contributor is harassing another team member? What if he/she is being openly racist/sexist/etc.?

In my eyes someone is allowed to be as hateful as they want as long as they contribute good code.

Really disingenuous. Even if you yourself don’t value civility and just being a good human being, a toxic team member may easily cause a net loss of good code, no matter what sort of 10x engineer they are themselves, due to the opportunity costs they incur.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#564
post #226

I love Rust. Its the language I use most these days. But seems like there is a new drama every week with the core team and community.

I think it's been the same drama over the core team which has been playing out over a month or two now.

What drama exactly? Sorry, I'm a bit out of the loop now, I stopped using reddit and twitter a few months ago.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#565
post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can't have a complex technical project that is successful without some minimum level of competency. For better or worse, competency often makes people a little rougher around the edges. This is just nonsense. Plenty of intelligent and capable people are perfectly friendly and non-toxic. Your philosophy demonstrably doesn't work. Its failures are so obvious that even Linus Torvalds, who people always seem to bri…

"Toxic people aren't worth the effort to keep them in, no matter how good their skilled contributions are. There can and should be a way to remove them." This is your utopian ideal - it is NOT indicative of the real world. Sometimes, there are horribly toxic people who are so competent and requisite to a project that their removal would cause immediate and irrecoverable failure. You made your statement as matter of f…

I'd call my statement an opinion, not a fact, but we can add an "In general," in front of what I said and note that there'll be exceptions from certain standpoints.

I think those exceptions are very limited, though. There seems to be an implicit judgment here that the success of the project is usually more valuable than the well-being of the people who are helping to complete it, and in the vast majority cases of I disagree. Unless literal life and death are on the line, it's hard for me to see it as worth it.

As an individual, my rule is pretty hard and fast and that's why I phrased it so definitively. I don't really care how much money is being offered to me or how cool or important the project is, and I don't really care how critical the person is to the project. If the choice is "allow the toxic person to be toxic or allow the project to fail," I'll vote with my feet and I'll leave.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#566
post #533

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one disputes the human rights of black people. What is disputed is whether police killings are racially motivated or whether American police are too often heavy handed irrespective of race (94% of Americans believe that some police reform is needed[0]). Of course, virtually everyone understands that blacks are killed disproportionately by police, but that doesn't imply a racial motive when we know for fact that th…

Black Lives Matter is a slogan used by disparate groups for a variety of causes. The slogan "Black Lives Matter" is necessarily one focused on the human rights of black people. The Civil Rights Movement of the 1950s and 1960s in the US also involved violent riots by some actors, and there was public debate between sides on whether segregation was intrinsically a cause of inequality, similar to how there is debate tod…

> Black Lives Matter is a slogan used by disparate groups for a variety of causes. The slogan "Black Lives Matter" is necessarily one focused on the human rights of black people.

If we can agree that this slogan is controversial, then it seems like we should be able to agree that the Go project could make its points better by avoiding a controversial slogan and instead using an unambiguous statement. Certainly this should be open for discussion.

Moreover, I could make a similar statement about "All Lives Matter", which is necessarily focused on human rights, but most people steer clear of the slogan because the media has worked to associate it with right-wing groups and now it is only used by right-wing groups--good faith people strive to make their points in ways which are unambiguously good faith; bad faith people use motte and bailey rhetoric which is what the Go team appears to be doing (they are certainly aware of the controversial nature of the slogan and refuse to discuss it).

> The Civil Rights Movement of the 1950s and 1960s in the US also involved violent riots by some actors

Right, and we collectively rebuked those actors and raised up non-violent actors as exemplars for social change.

> there was public debate between sides on whether segregation was intrinsically a cause of inequality, similar to how there is debate today between sides on whether our criminal justice system is intrinsically a cause of racial inequality.

Public debate is fine. Burning and looting neighborhoods, attacking innocent people, etc is not.

> If one didn't view segregation as intrinsically unequal, they might claim that the Civil Rights Movement (though focused on many other issues as is BLM) had "little to do with human rights."

Right, but through public debate and other non-violent means, we made the case that segregation is intrinsically unequal. With respect to BLM, note that there was an enormous effort to punish people for criticizing BLM.

> Supporting the Civil Rights Movement, a movement that contained numerous groups, goals, and actors (both violent and non-violent), was still a position that doesn't seem to have harmed organizations of the day, and may have even benefitted them.

We supported the Civil Rights Movement because it largely emphasized non-violence. We supported the movement in spite of its violent elements, and the violent and nationalist figures remained controversial right up until BLM folks made them popular.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm generally in favor of enforcing high-level "behave professionally" norms in OSS communities. And not as a new phenomenon, either. I've been kick-banning disruptive people from IRC channels for several decades, I've run forums where I appointed mods, and I've always avoided participating in completely unmoderated communities beyond N=20 or so (not worth the headache). But for some reason, the formalization of cond…

The vast majority of open source projects do not create their own open source license- most of them choose from a relatively small selection of widely used licenses (GPL, BSD, MIT, Apache, etc.). Why then do so many project choose to roll their own CoC? I'd expect that there would also be a relatively small handful of widely used CoCs to choose from, and a project could pick based on their projects' needs.

I'd wager this is because there is one outright leader in the field (the Contributor Covenant) who's author has at times been a controversial figure in her views on enforcement and scope of codes of conduct, which can lead to people being apprehensive of just adopting the popular example.

You can see similar with licenses. Stallman was initially controversial for his views on software licensing, and so in the early days there was a proliferation of licenses like the eclipse public license, mozilla public license, microsoft public license, CCDL, etc.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#568
post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is what I was talking about. Shame on me for thinking people wouldn't overlook the first three words of the banner. (:

I was trying to give the benefit of the doubt. It still surprises me that the phrase "black lives matter" is partisan.

It really shouldn't: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29308714

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterexample: Linux, GCC, Python, and practically the entire free software ecosystem from before the current crazy for hall-monitory-y supervision from above. It is simply demonstrably, factually, clearly not true that a growing community needs the kind of structures that Rust imposed on itself. It really makes me sad that a certain kind of person these days sees some kind of censorious overlord as essential for th…

> Zero people in the real world avoided using the Linux kernel because Linus was brusque. Actually, the best example of a project where the leadership of the project was so toxic as to drive away potential contributors would probably be glibc under Ulrich Drepper, which got so bad that most distributions abandoned glibc for the eglibc fork. (See https://lwn.net/Articles/488847/ for a high-level discussion).

I mean, I think ReiserFS deserves an honorary mention.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#570
post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This person? https://archive.fo/f10KK

This website always return a "could not reach server" error for me (in Japan). Is there another source?

http://web.archive.org/web/20170829180041/https://www.reddit...
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