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Rust Moderation Team Resigns

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Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#521

Post by tialaramex »

BoorishBears wrote: post #120
q1w2 wrote: post #92

Is there any tech consequence to this immature drama? I'm confused as to whether I should care or not. If there are consequences on the tech, people need to spell that out. Right now this all seems like some middle-school playground emotional drama. I'm too old to care about that.

To me, this line of thought is backwards. It stems from seeing the people issues as small stuff and the tech issues as the "real deal"... At the end of the day new features for popular language X are not that life-or-death (although I'm sure some Rust evangelist will claim the safety of it means it could save lives, ignoring things like MISRA) - If someone is being an asshole and damaging moral for real "meatspace" h…

> ignoring things like MISRA

Not so much ignoring, as recognising that much of what MISRA requires mechanically (ie that MISRA tools will let you check for a Continuous Integration setup automatically) is baked into Rust itself, and much of what MISRA asks beyond that is built into Rust's way of doing things.

My favourite this week: MISRA tells you never to use the result of an assignment operator. In Rust you can't because the assignment operators don't have a result.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#522

Post by adrianmsmith »

wyager wrote: post #464
porker wrote: post #364

This is a real shame. From the early days of Rust (pre-2018?) I built up this mental picture of it having a considerably better run and governed community, with people putting time into thinking about how a community should work rather than it being something that's ignored because "we're here to write code and managing a product is a waste of time". I lost touch (the last video I watched which might be the one that…

> with people putting time into thinking about how a community should work The sort of people who try to intentionally "plan" (I.e. socially engineer) community dynamics do not have a great historical record of actually creating good communities. History is littered with failed inorganic communities - from cults and communes to web forums with overzealous mods. Not saying that's necessarily what happened here, just t…

> people putting a lot of thought into how to control/manage a community might be more of a negative sign than a positive one.

A counterexample is Hacker News itself. We all like Hacker News (presumably, otherwise we wouldn't be here) and it wouldn't be what it is without the intentions of the original creator and the current moderation team.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#523

Post by dathinab »

queuebert wrote: post #412

I think Rust is a great programming language, but to be honest all this drama discourages me from using it as much. I worry about whether using the language will become a political statement. I worry whether people who can't get along are making the best decisions for the language. And I worry whether a total team meltdown will cause it to become defunct or forked at some point.

> I think Rust is a great programming language, but to be honest all this drama discourages me from using it as much.

It has little to do with using the language.

Also I doubt there is more drama in Rust then in Python, Ruby or similar. It's just that in recent years everything rust get always a lot of attention.

There is also not just "the rust Team" there are many independent working Teams, as well as a foundation. I don't think it becoming de-functional or fork-splintered is something you have to worry about.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#524

Post by dathinab »

devwastaken wrote: post #280

No reasons or substance given. This is how bad orgs continue to operate. Everyone is afraid of pointing fingers at the aggressor. Name and shame. Then If the rust org refuses to fix it, we know who to not involve in the fork.

> No reasons or substance given.

All reason needed was given:

- Unacceptability of the core Team wrt. the CoC.

- A too small (maybe not diverse enough) moderation not being able to upkeep their own standards even ignoring the issues of the core Team.

Both are structural issues. There might have been person-specific issues too, but in the grater picture they don't matter and would just diverge the attention form the structural issues which need to be solved.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#525

Post by native_samples »

tinco wrote: post #90
scandox wrote: post #16

> In this message, we have avoided airing specific grievances beyond unaccountability. We've chosen to maintain discretion and confidentiality. We recommend that the broader Rust community and the future Mod Team exercise extreme skepticism of any statements by the Core Team (or members thereof) claiming to illuminate the situation. Isn't that a kind of scorched earth statement? I read it as "we will be discreet and…

I feel it's a bit of a tautology, the fact that they're resigning already clearly communicates there's an irreconcilable difference between the mod team and the core team. If the core team comes with an explanation that would make light of the situation surely the new mod team would be skeptical. That said, there is still a bit of a game left to be played. The mod team just played their trump card, by instantly makin…

"by keeping the specifics close to the chest they both keep their integrity"

Odd code of honour there. They've made a lot of dramatic insinuations about other Rust contributors, basically asserted that they're all bad people, and provided no detail. That's the opposite of integrity.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#526

Post by zzzbra »

nopcode wrote: post #301
Ticklee wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my eyes someone is allowed to be as hateful as they want as long as they contribute good code.

Yes, and this is the policy of many long-running and successful FOSS projects (e.g. kernel developers). Rust however wanted something different and attracted a lot of "snowflakes" because of it.

seems like a bad take

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#527

Post by throwaway2077 »

bb010g wrote: post #478
papreclip wrote: post #435

>"In this message, we have avoided airing specific grievances beyond unaccountability. We've chosen to maintain discretion and confidentiality. We recommend that the broader Rust community and the future Mod Team exercise extreme skepticism of any statements by the Core Team (or members thereof) claiming to illuminate the situation." I guess these are the juicy details they are choosing to omit - https://archive.fo/f…

That is an extremely GamerGate-smelling list. Quotes are misinterpreted, overreacted to, and/or taken out of context. That list does not contain juicy details; it does contain a level of grime that I figured would mean it would be left in the past as a historical GamerGate artifact and not pulled up in the Rust community in 2021.

>overreacted to, and/or taken out of context.

change the race and/or sex in those quotes

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#528

Post by ziddoap »

jjk166 wrote: post #515
ziddoap wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I'd certainly never insinuate that my employer had done something wrong but refuse to clarify. I suppose we're of different opinion, as I considered the resignation letter to have enough clarity to the intended recipients to be acceptable. They didn't say "I quit, the end". They pointed at the specific areas of issue (accountability, structure) of which the core team is likely well aware of the minutiae. Just becaus…

They dropped a pretty beefy bombshell in the last paragraph that there were issues beyond accountability that they refuse to disclose. I'm absolutely certain that the core team has a good idea what they are talking about, the problem is this is a public letter, the intended audience is everyone, and they specifically attack the core team's credibility. When I resign from a job, I send my resignation to my employer in…

>is this is a public letter, the intended audience is everyone

Just because something is public does not mean the intended audience is also everyone. Something can be intended for a subset of people, but broadly published. But I think this has been hashed out somewhere else in the thread.

I think "management knows what they did, don't believe a word they say, I'm out, peace!" is a bit of a disingenuous reading of the letter, but you have a valid point about the last paragraph and I'll walk back what I said a little bit.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#529

Post by canaus »

FeepingCreature wrote: post #507
canaus wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is a "fuck up" to you?

Well, the question is rather- what is a "fuck up" to them? And to that- who knows? Certainly the point of a CoC is supposed to be to codify this, but I believe experience shows that its interpretation tends to be expansive, when the wording is not already expansive to begin with. At the end of the day, events like Curtis Yarvin, a person who has never harmed a fly, almost getting banned from Lambdaconf over "safety"…

I wasn't familiar with Curtis Yarvin, but in looking him up, you can't be serious, right?

>Yarvin's online writings, many under his pseudonym Mencius Moldbug, convey blatantly racist views. He expresses the belief that white people are genetically endowed with higher IQs than black people. He has suggested race may determine whether individuals are better suited for slavery, and his writing has been interpreted as supportive of the institution of slavery.

https://www.inc.com/tess-townsend/why-it-matters-that-an-obs...

You're upset that a Eugenics-lite writer was almost banned from a conference?

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#530

Post by radlad »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #323
malaya_zemlya wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i think the parent was referring to https://github.com/golang/go/issues/45970

Yes, this is what I was talking about. Shame on me for thinking people wouldn't overlook the first three words of the banner. (:

I was trying to give the benefit of the doubt. It still surprises me that the phrase "black lives matter" is partisan.
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