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Rust Moderation Team Resigns

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501–510 of 912 posts

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're committing to sharing these reasons with other Rust Team members, though. Just not the broader dev community.

Then don’t make a whole big public announcement about it. As someone from the outside this just reads like a post specifically to generate drama and attention but not giving details as to direct it at anyone in particular.

> Then don’t make a whole big public announcement about it.

I don't understand. How do you resign from a public project without resigning from that public project? If it is not about the resignation but about the message, do you think that a "we are resigning as a whole team that was made pbulic and we do not provide any public reason for that" would work any better?

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#502
post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the public nature of it, it's a bit of a persecution.

Persecution: hostility and ill-treatment, especially on the basis of ethnicity, religion, or sexual orientation or political beliefs. What I read does not seem to fit this definition, but maybe to others it does.

That's one of the dictionary definitions. That's not how it's used in everyday parlance however. It's usually used to mean harassment, usually of a group.

> To harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it's comical because Linux has so obviously driven a lot of people away from kernel development. Tech is male-skewed, and OSS more so, but Linux kernel dev is even then still at the far end of the gender disparity spectrum.

>gender sex - sure, but gender? we got plenty of females in OSS!

More so in Rust than in many other communities was my perception. Far more trans women per capita in that community than Linux kernel dev.

Still a general underrep of women.

e: Oh I see - your comment wasn't in good faith at all.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#504
post #364

This is a real shame. From the early days of Rust (pre-2018?) I built up this mental picture of it having a considerably better run and governed community, with people putting time into thinking about how a community should work rather than it being something that's ignored because "we're here to write code and managing a product is a waste of time". I lost touch (the last video I watched which might be the one that…

This person? https://archive.fo/f10KK

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#505

I mean, is it any surprise? When all you have is a hammer, everything is a nail. I'm going to go out on a limb and say they probably recruited a bunch of SJWs who went around looking to be offended, then were told where to go (I mean, they're non-technical members of a technical project) and now they're acting offended...

[deleted]

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#506
post #158
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, an immature drama would have people slinging feces. This is a highly mature drama where the arguments are dry, generic and adhere to a strict code of values. No fingers were pointed, and the offended party is taking the high road by resigning. It's not often that people behave in a mature fashion, so I fully understand you did not recognise it for what it is.

What exactly is 'mature' about making a vague accusation, refusing to substantiate it and claiming that if the other side says anything it would be a lie?

I can understand why this looks odd if you are not used to how professionals interact over process questions. This strikes me as very similar to how public companies 'fail' audits - which is to say that companies never really fail audits, they just have their auditors resign.

The reason for this is that, when you hire people to validate a process, most of the failure states come from processes that you are unable to verify as good or bad. This doesn't always mean that something is wrong - it just means that the validation team (or the code of conduct team in this case) does not feel, in their opinion, that they can confidently render an opinion. This is important because, at the end of the day, all these teams can do is produce opinions.

The obvious reaction is to suggest changes to the process that would allow you confidence in validation (these are called 'controls' in the auditing world). However, if the group you are trying to validate won't make your changes, then you are left in a situation where you can't be confident about doing your job. You aren't sure that anything is wrong exactly, but you are sure that the current setup won't allow you to be sure. You're faced with sitting in a situation where people expect you to validate a process, but you feel you can't - and so the only path is to resign.

However, as you can tell, there's a chance that the problem is the process verification team. Maybe they are dumb, or jerks, or whatever. If they are jerks, then you both wouldn't be able to rely on their specific accusations and it is possible that they missed things because of rudeness or incompetence, etc. So either way the sensible thing to do is not make specific accusations aside from "we don't think we can verify this process and we would recommend you take what others say about why with a grain of salt."

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#507
post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These "internet activists" you spend so much effort maligning are simply reminding you that there is a human being on the other side of that screen. Actually, primarily they're reminding me that there's a human being on the other side of the screen watching everything I do in case I fuck up. How this is supposed to make anyone want to participate is a mystery to me. edit: The weird thing to me is that these people…

What is a "fuck up" to you?

Well, the question is rather- what is a "fuck up" to them?

And to that- who knows? Certainly the point of a CoC is supposed to be to codify this, but I believe experience shows that its interpretation tends to be expansive, when the wording is not already expansive to begin with.

At the end of the day, events like Curtis Yarvin, a person who has never harmed a fly, almost getting banned from Lambdaconf over "safety" concerns, demonstrate that the fuck-up may just be having a political difference of opinion with the group in question.

(Analogously, and I say this as somebody who would vote Dems every time if they lived in the US, a moderation team that included at least one Trump voter would also assuage such concerns. Consider it a commitment to diversity.)

edit: To be clear, I am not asking for anything resembling quotas; just any demonstration of the ability of the team to coexist with a person they have serious ideological disagreements with.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#508
post #420

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me like any time there's a controversy surrounding code of conducts (and just bad behavior in general) with open source projects, it's always on Github. Conversations on Gitlab by comparison always feel a lot more serious and professional. That could just be due to numbers, since Github has way more people. The low barrier of entry to Github probably also contributes, since it attract…

> Conversations on Gitlab by comparison always feel a lot more serious and professional.

I doubt it, at least in my experience this has little to do with GitLab or GitHub.

> The low barrier of entry to Github

In this case no low barrier of entry is involved. There is no low barrier of entry to join the core Team. This is not drama because of a random person posting some random bs on GitHub.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and this is the policy of many long-running and successful FOSS projects (e.g. kernel developers). Rust however wanted something different and attracted a lot of "snowflakes" because of it.

Can you explain to me what your definition of snowflake is? Is it anyone who doesn't agree with the ethos "In my eyes someone is allowed to be as hateful as they want as long as they contribute good code."? Genuinely asking, as it seems to appear several times throughout this topic and the only thing I can settle on is that it's used as a derogatory term for anyone who cares more about X or Y than the person calling…

"Someone who chooses to get offended about what others write or say" would be my working definition. I don't think being offended is a reasonable thing to be, generally.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#510
post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See the discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28515306 .

I did see it, however it seems to be just speculation about what is happening. I don't want to base all my opinion on that. Some of these are rather heavy accusations, like the nepotism between Steve Klabnik and Ashley Williams, or that Steve Klabnik smeared Amazon because they didn't give Ashley Williams a job. I don't want to give them weight when the only source seems to be a pseudonymous post.

The poster there actually worked on the Rust project and did more than Ashley Williams, at least on the technical side. I even noticed their "absence" (or lower involvement) earlier this year and was wondering if they're okay.

As for Steve's rant [1], it was weirdly guided against the "Rustacean principles" (which are totally harmless [2]), but happened right after Ashley's interim director contract was not extended.

Actually, on the HN post back then, Steve complained more about how Amazon didn't give her the job, than anything else.

But yes, you're right, this is just speculation.

[1]: https://twitter.com/steveklabnik/status/1437441118745071617

[2]: https://rustacean-principles.netlify.app/how_rust_empowers.h...

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