Rust Moderation Team Resigns • Hacker News Board

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#441

Post by bitwize » Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 5:29 PM UTC

tinco wrote: post #184

gdy wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly is 'mature' about making a vague accusation, refusing to substantiate it and claiming that if the other side says anything it would be a lie?

The accusation is not vague and it was substantiated. Just not to you. Not to me either, and I think that's a good thing for now. No doubt whoever steps up to become the next mod team will be fully informed by both sides, and hopefully they can make an objective decision about what should and what should not be public. It is probably none of our business anyway. And it's not a claim that everything they would say wou…

> The accusation is not vague and it was substantiated. Just not to you. Not to me either, and I think that's a good thing for now.

Of course it's a good thing. It's part of the strategy behind this move.

If (when) the accusation turns out to be a relative nothingburger, the Moderation Team would lose the moral authority and hence the power they think they command by going "well fine, we'll take our ball and go home".

Better to let it be vague, so that the public can imagine serious violations that cast the Core Team's legitimacy into doubt.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#442

Post by canaus » Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 5:29 PM UTC

folkrav wrote: post #384

Ticklee wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my eyes someone is allowed to be as hateful as they want as long as they contribute good code.

I'm genuinely curious: why should contributors have to endure someone's toxicity if something can be done about it? In professional settings, I've seen colleagues get fired over bad behavior, and not for the lack of competence - and I can safely say the team's morale and productivity went right up each time. I fail to see how this couldn't be applicable to open source projects that wish to do it as well, as you'll ty…

And not even just contributors. Users of your project might not want to interact with your team. If I encounter a bug and want to create an issue, but I either see racism within communication, or just overall negativity in comments from members, why would I continue with your project? I could just as easily be subjected to it.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#443

Post by couchand » Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 5:29 PM UTC

DoneWithAllThat wrote: post #216

couchand wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How exactly are the groups of people working on various parts of the official ecosystem supposed to coordinate their efforts? The only alternative I've seen is a benevolent dictator, which seems significantly worse for a number of reasons. Edit: it looks like you've removed the part about Teams/Committees.

As a matter of fact no, benevolent dictator is not significantly worse. In fact historical evidence when it comes to OSS projects points to the benevolent dictator model being the most effective. It may not satisfy social justice activists pretending to be competent programmers demanding a seat at a table that they never earned, but most successful projects are not ruled by committee until they reach a significant le…

Far too many promising open source projects have disappeared because the benevolent dictator lost interest and disappeared without leaving an empowered community. Far too many promising open source projects withered and died because the not-actually-benevolent dictator turned off every would-be contributor.

In the scope of things, these are much more common that the few examples of projects that succeeded in spite of low bus factor and toxicity.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#444

Post by anandrew » Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 5:29 PM UTC

tharne wrote: post #349

anandrew wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but the person(s) who caused offence probably have no bad intentions I'd give the mod team the benefit of the doubt that the offense they've all resigned over is not so mild that it could be committed unintentionally.

> I'd give the mod team the benefit of the doubt that the offense they've all resigned over is not so mild that it could be committed unintentionally. I don't think that's necessarily a safe assumption, particularly in today's cultural and political environment.

I agree. Lets put it this way: I'll be surprised, but not shocked, if the assumption turns out false.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#445

Post by znpy » Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 5:29 PM UTC

pyrale wrote: post #168

znpy wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You call it mature but an outsider would have no idea about what's happening. I have no way of forming an idea whether it's utter bs or if there is something actually going wrong.

Moderating a community is not meant to entertain outsiders, but to prevent escalation within the community. No offense, but what do you expect to be able to contribute to this situation as an outsider? Would your contribution to the community be improved by additional information?

> No offense, but what do you expect to be able to contribute to this situation as an outsider?

That's a pointless question.

I might want to understand what's going on to understand if it's even worth it to be contributing to the community at all.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#446

Post by dathinab » Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 5:29 PM UTC

hintymad wrote: post #368

Curious, why did a project of programming language hire a multi-person moderation team in the first place? That's the OSS version of HR? Or is it equivalent to a team of diversity and inclusion?

> hire

Not hired, but voluntary.

> moderation team in the first place

Because a community of any larger size needs moderation (small communities tend to self moderate, larger communities without any form of moderation are at serve risk of becoming toxic and/or unwelcoming places).

> OSS version of HR

Oversimplified it's a Team which steps in when the Code of Conduct is (potentially) violated to moderate (i.e. resolve) the situation with the goal of keeping the community open, friendly and well coming.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#447

Post by CivBase » Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 5:30 PM UTC

mjburgess wrote: post #86

Absent some form of democracy, what does it mean for a leadership to be "accountable"? Power extends from whoever has the authority to hold others to account. So this just reads like a power-grab from the moderation team. What would it mean for them to have the power to hold the core team to account? That they could sack people from it? The goals of the project are set by the core team; not by a moderation team enfor…

> I'd be interested in hearing from a down-voter on what their objection is.

Firstly, you alleged the mod team was engaging in a "power grab" by resigning immediately. Others have pointed out that is illogical. At best a resignation could earn them some level of sympathy, but it eliminates their current power along with any potential for them to acquire power in the future. If there is any way for the mod team's resignation to increase there power, you have not shared it.

Secondly, your claim seems to be baseless. Nobody in this HN thread has shared any details beyond what is in the resignation PR - much less enough to suggest a power grab. I consider baseless allegations like that to be harmful to the overall discussion. Until additional details regarding the conflict are made public, we should not encourage people to form character judgements on either party.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#448

Post by kelnos » Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 5:30 PM UTC

dolni wrote: post #298

remus wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Otherwise, if a person is generally toxic enough, they will be worked around. While this is generally true the workarounds can and do take time, and while all this is happening there's a lot of space for a person to do significant damage to the project in the meantime.

> the workarounds can and do take time That's a feature, not a bug. Most big decisions can and should take time. Usually because it's not a simple matter of "this guy is a massive dick to everyone and contributes hardly anything." More often it's "this guy carries this project, and he is an asshole when people show up and run their mouth because they think they're smarter than they are." Which is to say - it's a shad…

> Usually because it's not a simple matter of "this guy is a massive dick to everyone and contributes hardly anything."

No, but if someone is a massive dick to everyone, the quality and quantity of their contributions shouldn't matter. Being a dick is being a dick. Doesn't matter what they contribute.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#449

Post by baseballdork » Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 5:31 PM UTC

nrabulinski wrote: post #376

zozbot234 wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're committing to sharing these reasons with other Rust Team members, though. Just not the broader dev community.

Then don’t make a whole big public announcement about it. As someone from the outside this just reads like a post specifically to generate drama and attention but not giving details as to direct it at anyone in particular.

Not sure that I'd call a PR a "whole big public announcement". Sure, it wound up here, but I don't think you can blame that on the mod team.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#450

Post by throwawaygh » Mon, Nov 22, 2021, 5:31 PM UTC

eldavido wrote: post #421

throwawaygh wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it will help to explicate what rubs me the wrong way about "corporate HR". The facade of process masking Machiavellian reality is what rubs me the wrong way. I'm always astounded by folks who don't understand that companies are feudal kingdoms and that all the stuff about processes and protecting people who are innocent/do the right thing is just hot air. And I've never been on the wrong side of HR, so this isn…

I have a nagging feeling the rules are different in fields like sales, trading, sports, or others where performance is more precisely quantified. The reality, somewhat sad in my view, is that in most places, software shops, architecture firms, academia, pretty much anywhere where individual measurement isn't possible and most work is done in teams, most performance reviews are a thin veneer over a high school popular…

> sales

Most types of sales labor is a complete commodity. For every one high-powered b2b software sales person there are hundreds of folks selling commodity laptops to rural schools, pushing trim upgrades in car dealerships, cold-calling convenience store owners, etc. The high school politics in those sorts of sales shops are next-level.

> trading

Trading desks are often whole orgs, often with diffuse and difficult to measure contributions. Not so dissimilar from software shops, really. In fact, often literally are software shops!

> sports

I don't have first-hand experience with anything other than climbing and skiing, where "hussle" and getting along with everyone from sponsors to gym/resort owners to random community members is way more important than raw talent. At the end of the day you're basically an influencer. Instead of HR imposing rules to help with reputation management work, you're doing the HR reputation management job yourself.