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Rust Moderation Team Resigns

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Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#221
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An accusation substantiated in secret is not an accusation substantiated. This is a fundamental principle of justice, dating back centuries.

Justice requires due process. This announcement was made two hours ago. Everyone just wants to instant gratification and to know which party is right or wrong so they can feel good about their minds being made up. We are not the jury here, we're just a tool in their power struggle. They're explicitly not asking us to pass judgement, they're just asking for a new jury.

"they're just asking for a new jury"

That's not what they did, obviously.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#222
post #106
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you elaborate on the Elm breakdown? I don't remember reading about it.

There's been a longstanding issue that a lot of people are unhappy with the level of control that Evan exercises over the development of the language. On top of that, a lot of the development of the core language happens behind closed doors, which has given the impression of stagnation over the past few years. As I understand it, the fundamental reason for this situation is technical. It is really difficult to enforc…

Evan also wants to prevent people from making packages that solve certain types of problems so that he'll be able to make a better package in the future without needing to worry people might not want to switch because of backwards compatibility. I think that's entirely his right, but I'm skeptical it'll work.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#223
post #214
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The second link in this thread ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28515306 ) includes multiple alleged statements that are about identity politics. One example being: "saying incredibly horrible sexist and racist things such as 'kill all men', and actively trying to prevent white men from speaking at tech conferences" Which seems to be connected to identity politics.

This seems to be a case of one person who's said some things that pretty much everyone would regard as inappropriate and potentially offensive (probably regardless of where they stand on CoCs or their views regarding identity politics). I see no evidence of a connection between this person and the resignation of the Rust Moderation Team. I'd also add that making white men feel unwelcome in an open source software pro…

If the core team took her side even though she said those inappropriate and offensive things then it makes sense that the Rust Moderation team felt that they couldn't do their job and resigned because of it. Note that she is a part of the core team.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#224
post #207

> The Rust Moderation Team (Andre, Andrew and Matthieu) Is the Rust mod team really just 3 people? I'm really surprised to see this coming from Rust. I've viewed Rust's governance as one of the best amongst open source projects. Coincidentally we have very recently put together a mod team in Nim[1] that is significantly larger than just 3, it would be really great to hear more details so we can learn from this. 1 - h…

They do suggest that the next mod team spend more time recruiting...

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#225
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An accusation substantiated in secret is not an accusation substantiated. This is a fundamental principle of justice, dating back centuries.

Justice requires due process. This announcement was made two hours ago. Everyone just wants to instant gratification and to know which party is right or wrong so they can feel good about their minds being made up. We are not the jury here, we're just a tool in their power struggle. They're explicitly not asking us to pass judgement, they're just asking for a new jury.

[deleted]

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#227
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's written publicly, so by definition it is written for everyone.

No, not every public information is written for everyone. Just because arxiv papers are publically available does not mean that a posted string theory paper should be written for you so that you can understand it (or I for that matter).

Are you suggesting that the substance of the accusation is as complex and cannot be explained without years of preparation?

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#228
I don't believe proper free software projects require significant moderation of behavior between individuals.

If someone says something that rises to the level of a crime, report it to your local authorities.

Otherwise, if a person is generally toxic enough, they will be worked around.

Note that expelling a person from a project for being a jerk in one or more instances may do more harm than good. What is the value of their technical contributions? Just how much of a jerk were they?

Unfortunately, some snowflakes like to believe that everyone contributes equally. That is simply not the case. And, in fact, some people contribute a _negative_ amount overall. Which is to say, the project is better off without their participation.

Linux has changed the world -- in a very substantial way and much for the better -- even though Linus flew off the handle at people for years. That doesn't mean he is completely beyond criticism, but it does indicate to me that we need to put a significant check in place against these "feelings committees." Their sensibilities are becoming ever more delicate.

You can't have a complex technical project that is successful without some minimum level of competency. For better or worse, competency often makes people a little rougher around the edges.

Choose your tradeoff carefully.

edit: Adding an addendum here because of a lot of people seem quite triggered by the use of the word toxic and frankly, I don't have time to reply to all of you.

I used the word toxic in this post precisely once, to say that people who are toxic enough will be worked around.

Toxicity is not a yes/no question. It's a matter of degree and context. So is technical contribution.

Everyone is capable of saying things they will regret later. Some people are capable of saying things that everyone else will regret, frequently.

With regards to "competency" and "rough around the edges" -- note I used the phrase "rough around the edges" and NOT toxic. Many of you seem to be making that substitution.

Have the lot of you never worked with someone who knows their shit, is opinionated, and isn't afraid to let you know it? They're often intimidating, even if they don't mean to be. Submitting a PR for review to them can be nervewracking even if they are entirely nice about it. Sometimes a fair critique will cut a little deeper because the code is your baby, and they didn't sugarcoat it enough for your liking. And, once in a while, they're willing to get in a heated debate because they feel strongly about something.

The very nature of being critical (which is required for quality code) is enough to provoke some unwanted emotions in other people. Even if those negative emotions aren't intended. And sometimes, getting into a heated argument about something is justified if it saves a lot of pain later.

Somehow, there is a lot of triggering going on here, and not a lot of acknowledgement of nuance.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#229
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The accusation is not vague and it was substantiated. Just not to you. Not to me either, and I think that's a good thing for now. No doubt whoever steps up to become the next mod team will be fully informed by both sides, and hopefully they can make an objective decision about what should and what should not be public. It is probably none of our business anyway. And it's not a claim that everything they would say wou…

An accusation substantiated in secret is not an accusation substantiated. This is a fundamental principle of justice, dating back centuries.

You're neither the judge not the jury. They aren't trying to make the case to you. The case has (it seems) been made and resolved elsewhere. This is just a public statement saying they do not accept the resolution and therefore resign.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the company is bound by legal concerns to not reveal why the person was fired I think this is a fairly common misconception. While you might sign an anti disparagement agreement when you were hired, those tend to be one-way and designed to protect the company. And the bar to prove a defamation case is extremely high . AIUI, most employers simply do not disclose details on firings as a matter of policy, not law.

You're correct in that there is no law saying that employers are prohibited from disclosing why a person was fired. But the policies are a result of laws that could open them up to legal action if they were to disclose any specifics. However unlikely that legal action may be, and probably even more unlikely to succeed, they still gain nothing from any such disclosures so it makes perfect sense to prohibit them.

Exactly. Any such disclosure gives a foothold for legal action that could drag on for a long time and cost a fortune. Even if you win, you lose, so why take that risk?
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