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Rust Moderation Team Resigns

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Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#211

Post by tinco »

torstenvl wrote: post #190
tinco wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The accusation is not vague and it was substantiated. Just not to you. Not to me either, and I think that's a good thing for now. No doubt whoever steps up to become the next mod team will be fully informed by both sides, and hopefully they can make an objective decision about what should and what should not be public. It is probably none of our business anyway. And it's not a claim that everything they would say wou…

An accusation substantiated in secret is not an accusation substantiated. This is a fundamental principle of justice, dating back centuries.

Justice requires due process. This announcement was made two hours ago. Everyone just wants to instant gratification and to know which party is right or wrong so they can feel good about their minds being made up. We are not the jury here, we're just a tool in their power struggle. They're explicitly not asking us to pass judgement, they're just asking for a new jury.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#212

Post by cycomanic »

gdy wrote: post #189
couchand wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps this message was not written for you?

It's written publicly, so by definition it is written for everyone.

No, not every public information is written for everyone. Just because arxiv papers are publically available does not mean that a posted string theory paper should be written for you so that you can understand it (or I for that matter).

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#213

Post by splistud »

pjc50 wrote: post #55
scandox wrote: post #16

> In this message, we have avoided airing specific grievances beyond unaccountability. We've chosen to maintain discretion and confidentiality. We recommend that the broader Rust community and the future Mod Team exercise extreme skepticism of any statements by the Core Team (or members thereof) claiming to illuminate the situation. Isn't that a kind of scorched earth statement? I read it as "we will be discreet and…

It's the opposite: it's a "we refuse to drag this drama out into the public sphere" statement.

Then why the guild-drama act?

Why are users supposed to exercise skepticism about anything the core team says, without any information from the other side so that we may judge for ourselves where our skepticism is warranted?

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#214

Post by foldr »

rocqua wrote: post #149
foldr wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not seeing any connection between the linked discussions and identity politics, and I'm certainly not seeing any connection with Brendan Eich. Hopefully not every thread that involves reference to a CoC has to automatically turn in to a grievance bin for people who have a bone to pick with identity politics.

The second link in this thread ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28515306 ) includes multiple alleged statements that are about identity politics. One example being: "saying incredibly horrible sexist and racist things such as 'kill all men', and actively trying to prevent white men from speaking at tech conferences" Which seems to be connected to identity politics.

This seems to be a case of one person who's said some things that pretty much everyone would regard as inappropriate and potentially offensive (probably regardless of where they stand on CoCs or their views regarding identity politics). I see no evidence of a connection between this person and the resignation of the Rust Moderation Team.

I'd also add that making white men feel unwelcome in an open source software project is very hard work. I am a white man, and would not for a moment feel uncomfortable about trying to contribute to node or Rust because of the indelicate mode of expression of this one individual.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#215

Post by unanswered »

asoneth wrote: post #101

Is there any good way to craft a message like this? If they outlined specific issues then it would invariably devolve into armchair quarterbacking of those issues rather than the the underlying question of what kinds of checks-and-balances should exist for the Core Team -- gossip, accusations, and political discussions are a lot more fun than debating governance structures. On the other hand, if no specific issues ar…

> Is there any good way to craft a message like this?

"We are resigning and our reasons have been shared privately with X group. "

But since the goal of the whole exercise is to generate publicity and drama, the above was an unacceptable approach and the approach actually taken was highly effective.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#216

Post by DoneWithAllThat »

couchand wrote: post #95
throwawaygh wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm generally in favor of enforcing high-level "behave professionally" norms in OSS communities. And not as a new phenomenon, either. I've been kick-banning disruptive people from IRC channels for several decades, I've run forums where I appointed mods, and I've always avoided participating in completely unmoderated communities beyond N=20 or so (not worth the headache). But for some reason, the formalization of cond…

How exactly are the groups of people working on various parts of the official ecosystem supposed to coordinate their efforts? The only alternative I've seen is a benevolent dictator, which seems significantly worse for a number of reasons. Edit: it looks like you've removed the part about Teams/Committees.

As a matter of fact no, benevolent dictator is not significantly worse. In fact historical evidence when it comes to OSS projects points to the benevolent dictator model being the most effective. It may not satisfy social justice activists pretending to be competent programmers demanding a seat at a table that they never earned, but most successful projects are not ruled by committee until they reach a significant level of maturation, and it’s arguable their development slows down quite a bit at that point.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#217

Post by WithinReason »

scandox wrote: post #16

> In this message, we have avoided airing specific grievances beyond unaccountability. We've chosen to maintain discretion and confidentiality. We recommend that the broader Rust community and the future Mod Team exercise extreme skepticism of any statements by the Core Team (or members thereof) claiming to illuminate the situation. Isn't that a kind of scorched earth statement? I read it as "we will be discreet and…

You could say it's demeaning towards the Core Team, which violates point 6 of the Rust Code of Conduct.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#218

Post by gdy »

couchand wrote: post #192
gdy wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's written publicly, so by definition it is written for everyone.

It is possible for a message to have an intended audience and still be viewable by others...

"viewable by others"

And I'm sure that the authors of the message are aware of that but made the decision to write what they have written anyway.

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#219

Post by [deleted] »

dom96 wrote: post #207

> The Rust Moderation Team (Andre, Andrew and Matthieu) Is the Rust mod team really just 3 people? I'm really surprised to see this coming from Rust. I've viewed Rust's governance as one of the best amongst open source projects. Coincidentally we have very recently put together a mod team in Nim[1] that is significantly larger than just 3, it would be really great to hear more details so we can learn from this. 1 - h…

[deleted]

Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns

#220

Post by zozbot234 »

Jensson wrote: post #179
busterarm wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually the opposite. In a repeat of what happened previously in the NPM community, people are asking for the CoC to actually be enforced _because of_ identity politics, rather than associating CoCs with identity politics. Going around saying things like "Kill all men" is just about as obvious as a CoC violation can get. Additionally, having members of the same governance body that are romantically involved pro…

"The core team refused to kick out a misandrist member" would lead to a lot of drama if they said it publicly. If that is why they are quitting then it makes sense that they refused to say anything about it.

It's not like she would be the first or the only team member with rather controversial political views. As long as these views don't meaningfully impact her work on Rust, why shouldn't she be on the team? Why can't we just learn to be more tolerant of dissenting views?
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