Sooooo. Should we not use rust then?
I would hold off until the Core Team is disbanded.
Rust Moderation Team Resigns
141–150 of 912 posts
Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns
#142Earlier quoted context omitted.
> they would have initiated a ban but they were not able to ban a core team member If that was the case, the obvious response would be a formal statement of rebuke and censure wrt. the offending member's behavior, which would clarify that such things aren't welcome in the project. The fact that we aren't getting anything close to that extreme suggests that this is in fact a big fat nothingburger. (Unless you think th…
It might be that they cannot censure the offending member in any capacity, due to their core team member status. In that case, resignation is the only thing they have to effectively rebuke behavior.
Public shaming by respected community members is probably somewhat effective. However, they chose not to do that here. Without knowing more, I have to trust their judgment. But I recognize that it’s unsatisfying.
Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns
#143Out of curiosity, to whom is the Moderation Team accountable?
Seems like they and the Core Team should be accountable to the same oversight board.
I don’t know the inner workings of the organization, so apologies if I’m asking a dumb question.
Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns
#144Earlier quoted context omitted.
Absolutely, yes. A growing community needs healthy management in order to avoid reputational damage to the core language. There's no shortage of guidance to "stay away from X tech because the community is toxic and non-serious"
Counterexample: Linux, GCC, Python, and practically the entire free software ecosystem from before the current crazy for hall-monitory-y supervision from above. It is simply demonstrably, factually, clearly not true that a growing community needs the kind of structures that Rust imposed on itself. It really makes me sad that a certain kind of person these days sees some kind of censorious overlord as essential for th…
> Zero people in the real world avoided using the Linux kernel because Linus was brusque.
Actually, the best example of a project where the leadership of the project was so toxic as to drive away potential contributors would probably be glibc under Ulrich Drepper, which got so bad that most distributions abandoned glibc for the eglibc fork. (See https://lwn.net/Articles/488847/ for a high-level discussion).
Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns
#145Earlier quoted context omitted.
Absolutely, yes. A growing community needs healthy management in order to avoid reputational damage to the core language. There's no shortage of guidance to "stay away from X tech because the community is toxic and non-serious"
In my personal experience such statements are pretty rare actually.
In my personal experience such statements are actually not rare among specific minorities, and only in spaces between those minorities. They will never be said in a public way, because it makes them targets. I've been pulled aside by fellow minorities and warned against communities I had expressed interest in in the past, always in private in confidential spaces.
Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns
#146> In this message, we have avoided airing specific grievances beyond unaccountability. We've chosen to maintain discretion and confidentiality. We recommend that the broader Rust community and the future Mod Team exercise extreme skepticism of any statements by the Core Team (or members thereof) claiming to illuminate the situation. Isn't that a kind of scorched earth statement? I read it as "we will be discreet and…
It's the opposite: it's a "we refuse to drag this drama out into the public sphere" statement.
That's a naïve reading. They are dragging more into the public sphere than necessary to raise their grievances.
They could have kept the statement confined to disagreement with the government structure. Leave it ambiguous between whether it was a theoretical weakness in the structure, or a practical one where they already experienced the inability to censure.
People like goss. Wagging your eyebrows to imply something definitely did happen - but you're too classy to release details - is not a insipid act.
Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns
#147These organizational breakdowns in tech communities (recently Rust,.NET, Elm) make me much more appreciative of long-running, relatively healthy communities.
Technical communities are formed around common purpose. They are not goals in themselves. Community needs only to be healthy enough to get things done.
Take for example OpenBSD. Theo de Raadt may be an asshole sometimes, but he knows stuff can still steer the technology. OpenBSD is extremely opinionated even technologically, but it's really good.
Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns
#148We don't contribute but we want control -- if we can't have it, we will libel the project. Almost every open source project is being overtaken by social justice warrior leeches. Even Linus Torvalds was kicked out of Linux. I'm surprised that the Rust community pushed back.
4 Downvotes in 1 minute -- exhibit A
[deleted]
Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns
#149Earlier quoted context omitted.
I love Rust the language, and the community is generally good, but for whatever reason modern identity politics has always been looming around its key members. Maybe just because it spun out of Mozilla and the Brendan Eich debacle, who knows.
I'm not seeing any connection between the linked discussions and identity politics, and I'm certainly not seeing any connection with Brendan Eich. Hopefully not every thread that involves reference to a CoC has to automatically turn in to a grievance bin for people who have a bone to pick with identity politics.
The second link in this thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28515306) includes multiple alleged statements that are about identity politics. One example being: "saying incredibly horrible sexist and racist things such as 'kill all men', and actively trying to prevent white men from speaking at tech conferences" Which seems to be connected to identity politics.
Re: Rust Moderation Team Resigns
#150Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm generally in favor of enforcing high-level "behave professionally" norms in OSS communities. And not as a new phenomenon, either. I've been kick-banning disruptive people from IRC channels for several decades, I've run forums where I appointed mods, and I've always avoided participating in completely unmoderated communities beyond N=20 or so (not worth the headache). But for some reason, the formalization of cond…
>But for some reason, the formalization of conduct enforcement stuff around OSS projects still feels weird, off-putting, and very "Corporate HR"-y to me. But if a community already approved such rules is it OK that those would not apply equally for all? Before joining a new community I always check and see if there is a lot of toxicity or just low effort contributions and I am avoiding those, it would suck to join a…
What's "a community" here?
If this "moderation team" felt that there is no option but to quit, that means that they were rejected by the community, complete with the "CoC" they tried to enforce.
Seems like everything is fine to me.