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Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

lse.ac.uk

461–470 of 704 posts

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sentience is the capacity to experience sensations like pain or emotions. Insects have a nervous system and consequently feel pain, which makes them sentient. That doesn't appear to be the key metric we consider when culling/killing things, in the end. It's not clear that they have the capacity for "anguish", let alone understand it. The old practice of cooking crab and lobsters was to subject them to pain for a need…

> Insects have a nervous system and consequently feel pain, which makes them sentient. I'm not so sure about this. To feel pain requires consciousness. Behavior is not consciousness. It often indicates it in animals like humans with complex nervous systems. But it's very unclear when we get to something with a few thousand neurons. They likely won't any of the neural correlates of consciousness that we do. If insects…

I don’t think that pain requires consciousness, but not in a way you probably think I am right now. I think that we don’t feel pain either. It’s a combination of a prediction and a sensation that assembles to pain. And when you split pain into parts, interesting things happen.

First, it is a unconditional limb/muscle reaction that is hard-coded. It’s uncomfortable but doesn’t constitute “suffering”. Then there is a sensation: burning, broken, cold, etc that makes you do something in the range of acting to reduce the damage to screaming (message danger to others and maybe get help) and kicking erratically (to counteract a predator). It’s more close to “suffer”, but short episodes don’t really add up to long-term or intensive “anguish”. Some people have high pain tolerance, but it doesn’t mean they don’t feel it, they simply don’t change their state of minds so much. And then may come the understanding that you’re going to unfair die or become disabled for life, and these feelings and thoughts may be comparable to a situation of no physical pain at all, e.g. if you end up with an unfair life sentence. So basically my idea is that dying in pain is just a very negative sum of these negative components, but consciousness is not the key. It only helps to see your fate, whatever it is.

Which parts of “pain” we are trying to reduce by these laws is unclear.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#462
post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He was prescribed Clonazepam, not opiates.

Which I have just discovered are like opiates on steroids when it comes to addictive properties.

Your comment is nonsensical. You are talking about two entirely different families of medications.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#463
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Human fetuses become sentient sometime between 8-30 weeks (depending on who you ask and how they define sentience).

> 30 weeks 30 weeks?? Obviously these people never experienced pregnancy. It's ridiculous that we argue about lobster intelligence when most people don't even know the basic facts about their own human biology. (Another common and ridiculous meme is the "pregnancy after having sex once" idea.)

Another common and ridiculous meme is the "pregnancy after having sex once"

I don't understand what your point with this.

Women's libido is heightened around ovulation (and men react to that), the menstrual cycle can be irregular (specially before the first pregnancy).

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#464
post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How not causing pain to animals when cooking them relates to intelligence? I suspect that my comment can sound blunt to you, so let me explain. When a human wants to eat something, their goal is not only to eat, but to do that without harming their emotional state. E.g. if I (or anyone) wanted to eat badly and catched an animal, I wouldn’t boil it alive, because it would scream of pain and hurt my mental state. But i…

Presumably, intelligence entails understanding that suffering can take forms other than the immediately obvious ones, and taking steps to minimize it if possible.

I’m aware that it may feel pain either just like I do, or in a different way. My question is why should I be agitated by this thought, iow what is the reason to reduce it. I don’t relate its suffering to my “soul” or a mental state. Not talking about morals here, I wouldn’t boil a live crab in a presence of people who would react negatively. See also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29305117

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like to eat crab and lobster, but I never understood how anyone could boil one of them alive - even if it hasn't (or hadn't) been 100% proven they can feel pain, it seems such a horrible, horrible thing to do! I'm not any kind of animal rights activist, but it makes me feel upset just thinking about it :shudder:

The theory I hear from people who do it is that the animals die instantly in thermal shock. Would be great if someone in the know could comment; I'm certainly not endorsing this view!

My family does this, I remember watching them try to crawl out of the pot for the first few minutes so it's not true

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Evil men will do evil deeds but to get a good man to do evil deeds takes religion. I'm kind of surprised that this is a dillema for you. I.e. that you would rather watch the pets under your care, potentially in a confinement you placed them in get eaten up by mites, than intervene. And that the driving force for that inaction is somehow compassion. It sounds more like confusion.

This is uncharitable. I wouldn't rather. I (myself, as I am now) would rather save them from suffering. There are thousands of years of analysis by Buddhist theologians on these and other subjects. One critique against intervention is by denying or cutting short the acute suffering of another one denies that being's opportunity to learn the truth of their experience: that what is suffering is independent of a lasting…

Animals don't learn anything suffering from mites and other parasites.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#467

What does this mean in practice? By this definition, surely normal farm animals are sentient, but they are eaten, experimented on and frightfully frequently abused, so... what’s the change?

We aren't needlessly torturing them?

Seriously, you cannot see the difference between a person who delivers a single killing blow and then eats the animal and one who watches it boil to death over 20m or so?

"Getting joy from inflicting pain" is very different to "killing for food".

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#468

Context: I'm not a hypocrite. I eat a lot of meat. I would put very strong money down that by the time most people reading these comments are in an old folks home with their grandchildren, the vast majority of the population will consider consumption of all meat unethical. I don't think it will be illegal yet (just extremely regulated, and expensive - not the least bit because the carbon footprint of meat production…

> consumption of all meat unethical Eating meat is something natural, which be benefited from through our evolution, and which I think cannot be unethical in absolute terms. I think the term 'ethical' is being abused a lot these days. People do have opinions and beliefs and are free to decide that they do not want to eat meat as an personal ethical stance. The rights and wrongs of industrial meat production and high…

It all comes down to energy. Each time energy gets converted as it goes through the food chain, most of it is lost. We simply can't afford to eat things that ate things that ate things that ate things; there's not enough energy left after all that.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#469
post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please define "feel". They experience structural damage - yes, same as every other living organism or plant if damaged. If I tear dandelion in half it will emit poisonous juice. Does it "feel" pain though? I think no. The "feel" part probably can happen only in the sufficiently large brain, and lobster most likely don't qualify.

Different sets of neurons fire for different people on the same stimulus. Does that mean you don't feel pain in the same way another person feels pain?

on point imo!

does one need to feel pain in the same way for it to be classified as pain. pain is pain. one of the things that unites us as humans is our ability to feel it and empathize with another.

if an animal can feel pain it doesn't matter if it is the same pain. Also I recall that Nirvana once sang "It's ok to eat fish because they don't have any feelings". For generations people thought that is true.

Some in my family call themselves Pescaterean because they for some reason don't want to inflict pain on animals (that look like us).

my point is pain is pain - the rest is just mental gymnastics that allow us to justify our own behavior.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#470
After reading the title, what came to my mind was: Either UK is paradise and legislators have the resources to elbow Plato, Kant, Nietzsche and the rest, or the British population is becoming as religious as the vedic hindu population (for whom cows are sacred)

But after the brief surprise, I assume someone is pushing to sell certified lobster stunners, and maybe provide installation and servicing for them. Mandated by law.

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