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Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

lse.ac.uk

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Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#431

Post by Yizahi »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #404
jjcon wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lobsters have essentially the same number of neurons in their entire nervous system (including the “brian”) as a fruit fly does. Complex yes? Interestingly complex? Not even close. A cockroach has 10x more.

It’s still enough to feel being boiled alive.

Please define "feel". They experience structural damage - yes, same as every other living organism or plant if damaged. If I tear dandelion in half it will emit poisonous juice. Does it "feel" pain though? I think no. The "feel" part probably can happen only in the sufficiently large brain, and lobster most likely don't qualify.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#432

Post by sorokod »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #413
tagrun wrote: post #288

Not trying to argue it's OK to subject animals to unnecessary pain (it shouldn't be!), but from a pure logical consistency standpoint, are there many non-sentient animals? Why is it OK to not recognize mosquitos, rats, termites, deers, ants, etc etc which meet painful demise by humans as sentient animals while making exceptions for a few?

Not really. We simply classify animals by how much we can relate to them. Seals, sheep, dogs, etc. are cute. Lobsters, not so much. Most insects even less so. To the point where we are reluctant to eat them even though they are perfectly nutritious. They all have nervous systems, pain reflexes, etc. A counter argument is that absolutely everything in nature at some point dies and it tends to be unpleasant. Dying of o…

Nature can be cruel and we're part of nature

But we (humans) do exclude ourselves from being part of nature like that. If you believe that this is morally correct, how would you define the general criteria for this exclusion?

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#433

Post by swebs »

blitzar wrote: post #418
ebanana wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like jokes but all jokes aside Jordan Peterson’s material helped me get off of opiates

Seeing him strung out on opiates (edit: turns out it was benzos) made you get off opiates?

He was prescribed Clonazepam, not opiates.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#434

Post by imgabe »

jacquesm wrote: post #423
imgabe wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone actually cared about reducing suffering, there are far more egregious sources of it in the world that could be addressed. Worrying about lobsters suffering in boiling water for 2 seconds before they die is the plastic straw ban of reducing suffering. If you don't want to boil lobsters, then don't boil lobsters. Just don't kid yourself into thinking that introducing a ban on it is some kind of great victory…

This is a fallacy of thinking that many people suffer from: because you are taking care of one bad thing doesn't mean you are immediately responsible for taking all bad things, conversely, that you are not able to take care of all bad things does not mean that you can ignore the one bad thing that you can take care of. I'm surprised this is so persistent, it seems pretty obvious. If five houses are on fire and you de…

It's not a fallacy at all, it's a concept called opportunity cost. Resources are not infinite, so we should spend them where they can have the most and best impact.

If five houses are on fire, and you decide to go organize your sock drawer... Hey, you're doing something. An organized sock drawer is surely better than a disorganized one. But you could still be rightly criticized for wasting time on something unimportant when there are bigger problems you could be attending to.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#435

Post by youarealiar »

blitzar wrote: post #418
ebanana wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like jokes but all jokes aside Jordan Peterson’s material helped me get off of opiates

Seeing him strung out on opiates (edit: turns out it was benzos) made you get off opiates?

He did not get addicted to opiates, he had a bad reaction to prescribed benzodiazepines (anxiety medication) when his wife had cancer.

Take your lies and complete lack of compassion and get bent.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#436

Post by omnicognate »

stickfigure wrote: post #428
omnicognate wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what you mean by "interestingly complex". To say we are nowhere near understanding the nervous systems of fruit flies would be a massive understatement. Even for C.Elegans, for which we know the complete connectome and much more besides (and which has a thousandth of the number of neurons a fruit fly does), we're not close to explaining (or simulating) the behaviour of the animal in terms of the properties o…

Are you suggesting I should feel bad about squishing fruit flies?

No, I squish flies all the time. However, as an empathetic human you should probably feel a bit squeamish about inflicting unnecessary suffering on them.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#437

Post by TearsInTheRain »

Yizahi wrote: post #431
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s still enough to feel being boiled alive.

Please define "feel". They experience structural damage - yes, same as every other living organism or plant if damaged. If I tear dandelion in half it will emit poisonous juice. Does it "feel" pain though? I think no. The "feel" part probably can happen only in the sufficiently large brain, and lobster most likely don't qualify.

Please let us know how large is large enough to feel pain. Is a bird brain large enough? A mouse? A dog?

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#438

Post by mFixman »

Yizahi wrote: post #431
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s still enough to feel being boiled alive.

Please define "feel". They experience structural damage - yes, same as every other living organism or plant if damaged. If I tear dandelion in half it will emit poisonous juice. Does it "feel" pain though? I think no. The "feel" part probably can happen only in the sufficiently large brain, and lobster most likely don't qualify.

Different sets of neurons fire for different people on the same stimulus. Does that mean you don't feel pain in the same way another person feels pain?

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#439

Post by TaylorAlexander »

Yizahi wrote: post #431
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s still enough to feel being boiled alive.

Please define "feel". They experience structural damage - yes, same as every other living organism or plant if damaged. If I tear dandelion in half it will emit poisonous juice. Does it "feel" pain though? I think no. The "feel" part probably can happen only in the sufficiently large brain, and lobster most likely don't qualify.

> The "feel" part probably can happen only in the sufficiently large brain, and lobster most likely don't qualify.

This seems pretty arbitrary. As a vegan I draw the line at plants vs animals and while it is hard to live in industrialized society without harming animals, it’s easy for me to see how dropping a lobster in a pot will cause the animal to suffer. I’m doing just fine simply not eating them. Why do mental gymnastics to convince yourself dropping a lobster in a boiling pot doesn’t cause it to “feel” pain when you could just not do that? Lentils are so damn good.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#440

Post by Yizahi »

TearsInTheRain wrote: post #437
Yizahi wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please define "feel". They experience structural damage - yes, same as every other living organism or plant if damaged. If I tear dandelion in half it will emit poisonous juice. Does it "feel" pain though? I think no. The "feel" part probably can happen only in the sufficiently large brain, and lobster most likely don't qualify.

Please let us know how large is large enough to feel pain. Is a bird brain large enough? A mouse? A dog?

That depends on the precise definition of the word "feel" which I don't see in these comments so far.
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