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Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

lse.ac.uk

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Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#91

Post by crehn »

stephc_int13 wrote: post #78
coolandsmartrr wrote: post #32

David Foster Wallace once wrote an essay called "Consider the Lobster." He argued for the merciful eating of lobsters; rather than boil them alive, make their death instantaneous. How will the legal recognition change their treatment?

I catch lobsters and crabs as a hobby, and this is something I started at a young age (5, small crabs). I killed and cooked countless of those creatures. There is absolutely no doubt that they experience pain and fear, like all animals and probably also many plants. From my experience, I don't think they suffer that much when boiled alive, they die in less than two seconds, it is very quick because of their low volum…

> they experience pain and fear, like [...] probably also many plants

Out of curiosity, do you have any data to share that supports your perspective?

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#92

Post by hi41 »

The essay "Consider the Lobster" by David Foster Wallace came to my mind. In that essay he describes how extraordinary the nervous system of a lobster is and how mindlessly and cruelly we boil them live. If David were still alive, he would definitely welcome this development. I really miss David. I am awestruck by his other essay "This is Water". I am amazed at his deep insights into human nature and how well he describes it, kindly.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#93

Post by phonypc »

chrisweekly wrote: post #11

Crabs and lobsters are basically bugs, whereas an octopus is a creative, playful, intelligent creature with amazing capabilities. It seems strange to group them together.

>Crabs and lobsters are basically bugs

Not really. You might as well say humans are basically zebras.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#94

Post by thelibrarian »

ryan_j_naughton wrote: post #85
monkeybutton wrote: post #6

Octopi I understand, but lobsters? They have less than half the nervous system of an ant [1]. Are individual ants sentient and worthy of legislating over? [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_by_number_of...

Octopi is not the correct plural. Octopus is of greek origin, not latin. Thus, its greek plural is octopodes. And thus, since we don't tend to use greek plurals in english, the other proper plural is octopuses. Octopi is what's known as a hypercorrection. "A hypercorrection is non-standard use of language that results from the over-application of a perceived rule of language-usage prescription. A speaker or writer wh…

I have a friend who says using the word “octopi” displays ignorance of three languages at once - English, Latin, and (ancient) Greek.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#95

Post by ddulaney »

ryan_j_naughton wrote: post #85
monkeybutton wrote: post #6

Octopi I understand, but lobsters? They have less than half the nervous system of an ant [1]. Are individual ants sentient and worthy of legislating over? [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_by_number_of...

Octopi is not the correct plural. Octopus is of greek origin, not latin. Thus, its greek plural is octopodes. And thus, since we don't tend to use greek plurals in english, the other proper plural is octopuses. Octopi is what's known as a hypercorrection. "A hypercorrection is non-standard use of language that results from the over-application of a perceived rule of language-usage prescription. A speaker or writer wh…

“Octopi is what's known as a hypercorrection” might also be overcorrection (meta-hypercorrection?) now that octopi is an understood plural with enough usage that it’s in some dictionaries.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#96

Post by Dylan16807 »

adamcharnock wrote: post #4

Even as a meat eater I’m pretty shocked that this recognises them as sentient and yet does not ban their slaughter (aside from boiling them alive etc). Maybe I’ve read too much science fiction, but eating sentient beings seems Bad.

> Maybe I’ve read too much science fiction, but eating sentient beings seems Bad.

The common scifi definition of "sentient" isn't the dictionary definition.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#97

Post by ryan_j_naughton »

timClicks wrote: post #64
agravier wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are not all animals recognised as such under that law?

Because at times it's convenient to maim and/or kill them.

Sometimes it is necessary. Pest control is inherent. We cannot allow mice, rats, etc to live in urban environments unchecked.

Mice are sentient, does that mean we should only use no-kill traps and then release the mice somewhere far away? Many urban pests have population numbers that are 50-100X higher per square mile in the city than they could sustain in the countryside. So if we could even theoretically capture them and release them in the countryside, most would die due lack of sufficient food, which also seems unethical. And simply releasing a pest on the other side of the city so it isn't bothering your house clearly isn't solving the problem.

Killing animals, particularly pests, seems like an inherent part of urban living. Is this unethical? I don't think so.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#98

Post by glenstein »

TehCorwiz wrote: post #60
Natsu wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are fetuses not sentient for most of their growth, then?

By the above definition even amoeba and flatworms are sentient.

Amoeba can feel sensations? Not a rhetorical question, genuinely want to know.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#99

Post by TeeMassive »

Rastonbury wrote: post #90
TeeMassive wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more about how much they look like human babies. Species with more neotenic traits get more protections: https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.5406/janimalethics.2.1.0006 Sure lobsters do not look like human babies, but more than ants.

You are saying lobsters look more like babies than ants? Do you mean in terms of size, because neither have any similarities to a baby...

Yes and no. Yes they are more of the same size. Visually ants are little dots on the ground. Lobsters also have something that looks more like hands than ants do.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#100

Post by ksdale »

adriand wrote: post #25
chrisweekly wrote: post #11

Crabs and lobsters are basically bugs, whereas an octopus is a creative, playful, intelligent creature with amazing capabilities. It seems strange to group them together.

I assume that Dr Jonathan Birch, Associate Professor at LSE’s Centre for Philosophy of Natural and Social Science, and his team of scientists didn’t encounter this insightful perspective when they reviewed “over 300 scientific studies” in order to arrive at their conclusions… In seriousness though, this comment is a prime example of speciesism. Even if it were true that these crustaceans were “basically bugs” how doe…

The fact that this is just dawning on modern society is evidence that up until just a few generations ago, people were mainly occupied with not starving to death. Indeed, some ridiculously huge number of people worries about that today as well. The fact that we're able to even contemplate not harming animals is a sign of our enormous privilege.
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