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Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

lse.ac.uk

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Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#81

Post by nomorecommas »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #67
systemvoltage wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is actually insane that there is so much violence in nature. Every minute, there are millions of living things dying – many with unimaginable pain. The evolutionary engine is absolutely merciless. If I want to be terrified, I think what if we, instead of at the top of the food chain, were just second. It terrifies me to no end.

If you really want to be terrified, consider the possibility that most animals have no idea what a food chain is. So by extension - if in fact we weren't at the top of the food chain, would we even know?

Okay HP Lovecraft. Hey you should write a story about that!

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#82

Post by jjk166 »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #67
systemvoltage wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is actually insane that there is so much violence in nature. Every minute, there are millions of living things dying – many with unimaginable pain. The evolutionary engine is absolutely merciless. If I want to be terrified, I think what if we, instead of at the top of the food chain, were just second. It terrifies me to no end.

If you really want to be terrified, consider the possibility that most animals have no idea what a food chain is. So by extension - if in fact we weren't at the top of the food chain, would we even know?

I think most animals are aware of their predators even if they don't have some complex understanding of ecosystems. Anything that may once have considered humans a part of its natural diet has long since been hunted to extinction, save for maybe some remote patches of wild at the various edges of the human inhabited world.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#83

Post by [deleted] »

adriand wrote: post #25
chrisweekly wrote: post #11

Crabs and lobsters are basically bugs, whereas an octopus is a creative, playful, intelligent creature with amazing capabilities. It seems strange to group them together.

I assume that Dr Jonathan Birch, Associate Professor at LSE’s Centre for Philosophy of Natural and Social Science, and his team of scientists didn’t encounter this insightful perspective when they reviewed “over 300 scientific studies” in order to arrive at their conclusions… In seriousness though, this comment is a prime example of speciesism. Even if it were true that these crustaceans were “basically bugs” how doe…

[deleted]

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#84

Post by systemvoltage »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #67
systemvoltage wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is actually insane that there is so much violence in nature. Every minute, there are millions of living things dying – many with unimaginable pain. The evolutionary engine is absolutely merciless. If I want to be terrified, I think what if we, instead of at the top of the food chain, were just second. It terrifies me to no end.

If you really want to be terrified, consider the possibility that most animals have no idea what a food chain is. So by extension - if in fact we weren't at the top of the food chain, would we even know?

Extending it further – what are the things that we currently do not understand well but its understanding would lead to panic of the scale we've never seen?

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#85

Post by ryan_j_naughton »

monkeybutton wrote: post #6

Octopi I understand, but lobsters? They have less than half the nervous system of an ant [1]. Are individual ants sentient and worthy of legislating over? [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_by_number_of...

Octopi is not the correct plural. Octopus is of greek origin, not latin. Thus, its greek plural is octopodes. And thus, since we don't tend to use greek plurals in english, the other proper plural is octopuses.

Octopi is what's known as a hypercorrection. "A hypercorrection is non-standard use of language that results from the over-application of a perceived rule of language-usage prescription. A speaker or writer who produces a hypercorrection generally believes through a misunderstanding of such rules that the form is more "correct", standard, or otherwise preferable, often combined with a desire to appear formal."[1]

Now, you will find octopi in the dictionary, but only because so many people have engaged in this hypercorrection that it has become widespread and dictionaries reflect common usage.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercorrection

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#86

Post by pm90 »

This is a good step. I am a meat eater and I love eating meat, including all kinds of seafood. Even though I agree with all the ethical arguments against meat eating, I cannot bring myself to stop eating meat: it’s something I both grew up with and have a taste for.

Recently I’ve been switching my diet to eat more seafood when I crave meat (rather than land animals). Things like this will at least let me be better informed and nudge myself to eat less of the sentient beings. Lobsters are unfortunately too tasty to give up completely but it’s also not something I would eat daily anyways; most of my diet is salmon and sardines.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#87

Post by ryan_j_naughton »

peanut_worm wrote: post #49
stavros wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And where are cuttlefish?

> The review drew on over 300 existing scientific studies to evaluate evidence of sentience in cephalopods (including octopuses, squid and cuttlefish) Cuttlefish very closely related to Octopi, I am sure they’d get lumped in with the other cephalopods wherever the law is concerned.

Octopi isn't the correct plural. See my comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29301946

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#88

Post by khazhoux »

adriand wrote: post #25
chrisweekly wrote: post #11

Crabs and lobsters are basically bugs, whereas an octopus is a creative, playful, intelligent creature with amazing capabilities. It seems strange to group them together.

I assume that Dr Jonathan Birch, Associate Professor at LSE’s Centre for Philosophy of Natural and Social Science, and his team of scientists didn’t encounter this insightful perspective when they reviewed “over 300 scientific studies” in order to arrive at their conclusions… In seriousness though, this comment is a prime example of speciesism. Even if it were true that these crustaceans were “basically bugs” how doe…

> In seriousness though, this comment is a prime example of speciesism.

I would argue that your comment is a prime example of neoequicrustaceanism.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#89

Post by AussieWog93 »

drekk wrote: post #74
AussieWog93 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Does being a “bug” justify being boiled alive? I'm picking on your language choices rather than the overall point of your argument, but have you ever boiled a live crustacean before (and by this, I specifically mean fully submerging the animal under water that is under a rolling boil on a high-temperature flame)? They don't writhe in agony and try to escape; they die pretty much instantaneously (I'm talking no movem…

What's done to pigs, chickens, and cows is a terribly low bar to clear. I suppose lighting an ant on fire with a magnifying glass isn't cruel because it happens quickly. Personally how quickly an innocent being capable of suffering and happiness is killed doesn't factor into whether I call it cruel. Morality might be subjective, but the alternative requires accepting that needless, preventable death and suffering is…

The vegan argument is definitely a legitimate one, and not something I was trying to refute.

A lot of meat eaters have these strange ideas about what is and isn't cruel (the classic being "hunting is evil but eating farmed meat is totally OK"), ostensibly based on reducing unnecessary suffering but also completely devoid of hands-on understanding of what actually happens.

I will disagree with you on this point, though: >innocent being

I've kept yabbies in a tank before as pets. They're absolutely metal creatures and will do things like rip the legs off of live rivals one by one, then slowly tear them apart over the course of hours. I saw one spear a fish wish its claw and pull its guts out too (as if unreeling a spool), just because it could. They're supposed to be herbivorous but damn can they be cold-hearted killers.

(Crabs are far more social, apparently, but I've not seen them interacting before).

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#90

Post by Rastonbury »

TeeMassive wrote: post #63
monkeybutton wrote: post #6

Octopi I understand, but lobsters? They have less than half the nervous system of an ant [1]. Are individual ants sentient and worthy of legislating over? [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_by_number_of...

It's more about how much they look like human babies. Species with more neotenic traits get more protections: https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.5406/janimalethics.2.1.0006 Sure lobsters do not look like human babies, but more than ants.

You are saying lobsters look more like babies than ants? Do you mean in terms of size, because neither have any similarities to a baby...
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