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Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

lse.ac.uk

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Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#71

Post by rubyist5eva »

stathibus wrote: post #40
adriand wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume that Dr Jonathan Birch, Associate Professor at LSE’s Centre for Philosophy of Natural and Social Science, and his team of scientists didn’t encounter this insightful perspective when they reviewed “over 300 scientific studies” in order to arrive at their conclusions… In seriousness though, this comment is a prime example of speciesism. Even if it were true that these crustaceans were “basically bugs” how doe…

It's weird how use of the word "speciesism" implies that some place humans above other animals as a result of some kind of fallacy or irrational thinking, and not because we are humans and therefore more valuable to each other. Never mind the fact that we have consciousness and ego and complex nervous systems, whereas lobsters do not.

Speciesism is just a word that vegans use to beat you over the head and feel superior to you with, like calling some a racist.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#72

Post by adriand »

stathibus wrote: post #40
adriand wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume that Dr Jonathan Birch, Associate Professor at LSE’s Centre for Philosophy of Natural and Social Science, and his team of scientists didn’t encounter this insightful perspective when they reviewed “over 300 scientific studies” in order to arrive at their conclusions… In seriousness though, this comment is a prime example of speciesism. Even if it were true that these crustaceans were “basically bugs” how doe…

It's weird how use of the word "speciesism" implies that some place humans above other animals as a result of some kind of fallacy or irrational thinking, and not because we are humans and therefore more valuable to each other. Never mind the fact that we have consciousness and ego and complex nervous systems, whereas lobsters do not.

> not because we are humans and therefore more valuable to each other

I value my children more than I value your children, but you will likely disagree with my assessment, even though it isn’t unexpected. And I would have to admit my assessment is not objective.

> Never mind the fact that we have consciousness and ego and complex nervous systems, whereas lobsters do not.

That’s how speciesism works: we try to find some kind of difference between us and other creatures, and then say, because they lack X they are not worthy of consideration. It’s okay if they suffer. This is precisely the same logic that was used to justify slavery, for example.

The other problem is that the line keeps moving, because we keep discovering how similar we are to other animals. There was a time when science claimed that animals did not have emotions, which any dog owner could tell you is nonsense.

The truth is that we do not really know exactly what a lobster experiences. Shouldn’t we therefore be cautious?

I honestly believe that at some point, the majority of humans will look at our system of factory farming and “harvesting” of wildlife in much the same way that today we view slavery, colonialism and other egregious examples of human disregard for other lives. I am not saying they are the same thing, but I do think that they are in the same category.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#73

Post by ohyeshedid »

otherotherchris wrote: post #13
Mikeb85 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, we know cattle, sheep, chickens and pigs are sentient yet we consume them. Why would we make an exception for octopods and shellfish?

Shellfish aren't a massive industry so no one with political power cares to obstruct these laws. Cattle and sheep are usually treated well because cortisol reduces weight gain. Pigs not so much...

What metrics are you basing that first statement on?

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#74

Post by drekk »

AussieWog93 wrote: post #61
adriand wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume that Dr Jonathan Birch, Associate Professor at LSE’s Centre for Philosophy of Natural and Social Science, and his team of scientists didn’t encounter this insightful perspective when they reviewed “over 300 scientific studies” in order to arrive at their conclusions… In seriousness though, this comment is a prime example of speciesism. Even if it were true that these crustaceans were “basically bugs” how doe…

>Does being a “bug” justify being boiled alive? I'm picking on your language choices rather than the overall point of your argument, but have you ever boiled a live crustacean before (and by this, I specifically mean fully submerging the animal under water that is under a rolling boil on a high-temperature flame)? They don't writhe in agony and try to escape; they die pretty much instantaneously (I'm talking no movem…

What's done to pigs, chickens, and cows is a terribly low bar to clear. I suppose lighting an ant on fire with a magnifying glass isn't cruel because it happens quickly.

Personally how quickly an innocent being capable of suffering and happiness is killed doesn't factor into whether I call it cruel. Morality might be subjective, but the alternative requires accepting that needless, preventable death and suffering is ethical

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#75

Post by nomorecommas »

adriand wrote: post #25
chrisweekly wrote: post #11

Crabs and lobsters are basically bugs, whereas an octopus is a creative, playful, intelligent creature with amazing capabilities. It seems strange to group them together.

I assume that Dr Jonathan Birch, Associate Professor at LSE’s Centre for Philosophy of Natural and Social Science, and his team of scientists didn’t encounter this insightful perspective when they reviewed “over 300 scientific studies” in order to arrive at their conclusions… In seriousness though, this comment is a prime example of speciesism. Even if it were true that these crustaceans were “basically bugs” how doe…

> Does being a “bug” justify being boiled alive?

Depends on how hungry I am. I'd have to be pretty damn hungry to eat lobster or bugs anyway.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#76

Post by lstodd »

markstos wrote: post #41
adamcharnock wrote: post #4

Even as a meat eater I’m pretty shocked that this recognises them as sentient and yet does not ban their slaughter (aside from boiling them alive etc). Maybe I’ve read too much science fiction, but eating sentient beings seems Bad.

Some pigs register test for higher intelligence than dogs, but yet we eat those. Cows and chickens seem to feel pain as well. Where should we draw the line about which animals we eat and which we don't?

It's not like dogs are not eaten. cf Korea.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#77

Post by phonypc »

1270018080 wrote: post #33
thablackbull wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Random thought: Give every child one as a pet so they get emotionally attached and over time, society will grow to associate these creatures as man's friend.

My grandma lived on a farm and loved playing with the cows. Once she was old enough to connect the dots on what happened to them, and later saw the butchering process, she became vegetarian for life. The layer of separation 99% of the population has between the dark evils of the mass livestock industry and eating meat is an issue.

Nearly everyone has recent ancestors that lived on a farm and loved playing with the animals. Once they were old enough to connect the dots and later saw the butchering process, they remained omnivores for the rest of their lives.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#78

Post by stephc_int13 »

coolandsmartrr wrote: post #32

David Foster Wallace once wrote an essay called "Consider the Lobster." He argued for the merciful eating of lobsters; rather than boil them alive, make their death instantaneous. How will the legal recognition change their treatment?

I catch lobsters and crabs as a hobby, and this is something I started at a young age (5, small crabs).

I killed and cooked countless of those creatures.

There is absolutely no doubt that they experience pain and fear, like all animals and probably also many plants.

From my experience, I don't think they suffer that much when boiled alive, they die in less than two seconds, it is very quick because of their low volume and good thermal conductivity.

I think they suffer much more during transport.

Alas, like many seafood they deteriorate extremely quickly when dead. A lobster that has been dead for even one hour has a very different and unpleasant taste.

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#79

Post by nomorecommas »

tag2103 wrote: post #34
coolandsmartrr wrote: post #32

David Foster Wallace once wrote an essay called "Consider the Lobster." He argued for the merciful eating of lobsters; rather than boil them alive, make their death instantaneous. How will the legal recognition change their treatment?

Hopefully with extra butter on the side

Butter definitely makes everything better. I'm so grateful for cows!

Re: Octopuses, crabs and lobsters to be recognised as sentient beings under UK law

#80

Post by 1270018080 »

phonypc wrote: post #77
1270018080 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My grandma lived on a farm and loved playing with the cows. Once she was old enough to connect the dots on what happened to them, and later saw the butchering process, she became vegetarian for life. The layer of separation 99% of the population has between the dark evils of the mass livestock industry and eating meat is an issue.

Nearly everyone has recent ancestors that lived on a farm and loved playing with the animals. Once they were old enough to connect the dots and later saw the butchering process, they remained omnivores for the rest of their lives.

Yeah some people don't care. But I think there would be FAR less meat eaters if they weren't able to avoid the carnage.
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