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Surely you're joking, Comrade Beria

blog.nuclearsecrecy.com

121–130 of 145 posts

Re: Surely you're joking, Comrade Beria

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are underestimating how effective a "management" technique is demonstrating that you can shoot underperforming minions. I am somewhat skeptical of this take. I think if heaping abuse and threats of worse on people worked magic, there would be no homeless people in the US. Threats only work if the capacity is there -- or almost there -- and it's feasible to extract X with sufficient pressure. But you still can't g…

If police starting executing 10 random homeless people every night, it wouldn't necessarily "solve" homelessness but the homeless would get very creative, very quickly to figure out how to not be where-ever the police were looking. As with any management technique, it's about making sure you're focusing people on the right efforts, for values of "right" in terms of getting what you want. A horrifying police state has…

If police starting executing 10 random homeless people every night, it wouldn't necessarily "solve" homelessness...

That would rapidly cut back on the obviously, highly homeless population. Over the course of a year, that would be 3650 fewer homeless in the area.

When I was homeless in San Diego, there was an estimated 10k homeless on the streets of that city. Such a policy would tentatively eliminate the population of street homeless in just three years.

(Couch surfing is another form of homelessness but it is less obvious than people out in the street. Also some homeless float from cheap hotel to cheap hotel, being bled for more money each month than rent would cost but unable to arrange permanent housing.)

In the meantime, lines at homeless services would get shorter. This would leave more resources to go around for the remaining homeless, making it easier for them to solve their problems.

It would be draconian and have other effects, like normalizing the idea that police can play Judge Dredd and be judge, jury and executioner -- at least if you commit the crime of being very poor. Personally I would rather see us resolve the dire shortage of affordable housing that is a known root cause of homelessness in the US.

My point being: If that policy were instituted and the homeless suddenly began getting their act together, it wouldn't be solely due to people being "more motivated" by fear. It would in part be because of reduced burden on limited resources for solving the problem in question.

It might also be because fear of execution would free people up to try things that are currently "unthinkable." It would cut through their own internal red tape concerning "acceptable" behavior and likely also have other people looking the other way because "Well, hell, I would do that too in order to avoid being executed for the crime of being poor."

It might also make people decide they strongly disapprove of this outcome and make them more likely to donate to homeless services or volunteer, thereby adding more resources to the system to solve the problem.

Having written the above, it makes me wonder if these monsters were effective in part because they were operating in a low resource environment and reducing the burden on the available resources helped the remaining people be better fed and more effective and/or helped people decide they didn't care about looking foolish or breaking some social taboo. They cared about not being shot.

Of course, it's politically incorrect to analyze it and then say that's what happened and thereby "justify" their abhorrent actions. So people say they were monsters and say that we just don't understand why anyone put up with them.

Ideally, in a humane environment, we find ways to think outside the box without having to shoot people to make that socially acceptable.

Re: Surely you're joking, Comrade Beria

#122
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" he was apparently good at managing the program." That's one thing a lot of people don't understand. A lot of these monsters aren't just monsters but they are also very capable. Beria was a good manager, so was Himmler who led the Nazi SS. Stalin also was a hard worker and a master bureaucrat.

The same goes for today's leaders of organised crime, you have be CEO-material in order to manage 'Ndrangheta's ~50 billion euros business [1], it's not enough just to be able to kill some guys on a dark street in Catanzaro anymore. [1] https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210113-ndrangheta-crime...

[deleted]

Re: Surely you're joking, Comrade Beria

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beria's daughter in law mused to Simon Sebag Montefiore, a recent Stalin biographer, in an interview that "Beria was the kind of man who, if he lived in the United States, might very well have become chairman of General Motors."

This is one of the benefits of capitalism. It provides a relatively harmless occupation for the monsters.

Boys from Brazil.

Re: Surely you're joking, Comrade Beria

#124
post #4

For Soviet-era black humor, it's hard to beat the 2017 movie The Death of Stalin .

It was hilarious, but not very accurate. I don't expect accuracy from a film like that, but it's good to keep in mind. Beria was even worse than they depicted. He was a sadistic serial killer and sexual predator.

Armando Iannucci claimed that some of the things they showed in that film were changed to make them more believable because the real events were just too far outside of what would be credible to an audience.

Re: Surely you're joking, Comrade Beria

#125
post #44

Surely we shouldn't look at these subjects with blinders on. I'm sure the Soviet Union has done some evil deeds and killed scores of people in service of national zealotry, then tried to cover it up. But what global superpower hasn't? Realpolitik is an inevitable consequence of the modern world.

Please don't take HN threads on generic flamewar tangents. They're tedious, predictable (just look at the predictable responses below) and usually turn nasty. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I did not. I provided some perspective. The idea that the Soviet gulags were evil, without the larger context of evil perpetrated by various nation-states (particularly nuclear superpowers) distracts from the truth.

The fact that people react negatively to this factual consideration of evil in the context of nation-state politics is not my fault. I did not "take them on a flamewar tangent". And shying away from talking about truths like this only benefits the ignorant, at the expense of the rest of society.

A community that rejects critical thinking, or even engaging at all about complex and difficult subjects, is not a community worth protecting. I think these little "talks" are just training your community to reject difficult conversations rather than learning how to have them.

Re: Surely you're joking, Comrade Beria

#126
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you missed the point of my comment. The Soviet Union is not alone in committing atrocity or "evil". Every developed nation is guilty of it. And the scale of atrocity shouldn't be measured by the body count alone.

So a country that commit “evil” and claimed one innocent life should be lumped together with one that claimed 5 million innocent lives? If your argument is there is no country who hasn’t committed evil in some form I’m not sure you’ll get much opposition or really be saying something people don’t already know. If your excusing mass genocide because “everyone does bad stuff” then I’ll have to disagree.

You don't have to excuse immoral behavior to have a complex understanding of it.

Some would argue that hundreds of years of enslavement and death of millions of people is far, far worse than simply killing them. Which would put the United States pretty much at the top of the heap of evil nations. But we don't really think of the US as the most evil nation in the world, do we? Simultaneously, we don't seem to do anything to make up for that evil, even though the US has forced other nations to do so.

I bring all this up because it's extremely easy to point the finger at one group and generalizing it all as evil, when you're not part of that group. That's how humans perpetuate evil, as the book mentions. Just simplify them down to some external "thing" and justify or rationalize. Without acknowledging the context, and providing some form of comparison to others, it's easy to fall into the trap of demonization and over-simplification.

Beria was obviously an evil, sick, twisted fuck. But it's very hard to apply that generalization to a whole government or people.

Re: Surely you're joking, Comrade Beria

#127
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So a country that commit “evil” and claimed one innocent life should be lumped together with one that claimed 5 million innocent lives? If your argument is there is no country who hasn’t committed evil in some form I’m not sure you’ll get much opposition or really be saying something people don’t already know. If your excusing mass genocide because “everyone does bad stuff” then I’ll have to disagree.

You don't have to excuse immoral behavior to have a complex understanding of it. Some would argue that hundreds of years of enslavement and death of millions of people is far, far worse than simply killing them. Which would put the United States pretty much at the top of the heap of evil nations. But we don't really think of the US as the most evil nation in the world, do we? Simultaneously, we don't seem to do anyth…

The USSR literally lined people up by the millions and shot them in the head in industrial fashion.

Not even close to comparable.

Re: Surely you're joking, Comrade Beria

#128
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Beria was a good manager, they wouldn't have to threaten to shoot people. Or, another approach is that managers who threaten their employees' lives are awful at their jobs. In the free world, managers don't threaten that and they achieve far more. Even in the military, whatever the law, even in wartime it's never done afaik.

Beria was, without a doubt, a cruel maniac. Chertok in his books - https://www.nasa.gov/connect/ebooks/rockets_people_vol1_deta... , but the episod is, I think, from volume IV - tells the following story. Soviet space designers are in the beginning of the work on the manned Moon expedition. Korolev and Glushko - two towering figures, the best rocket constructor and best engine constructor of the country - can't find…

>if two communists can't find an agreement, then one of them is enemy

Ah, an early version of Aumann's agreement theorem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aumann%27s_agreement_theorem

Re: Surely you're joking, Comrade Beria

#129
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't take HN threads on generic flamewar tangents. They're tedious, predictable (just look at the predictable responses below) and usually turn nasty. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I did not. I provided some perspective. The idea that the Soviet gulags were evil, without the larger context of evil perpetrated by various nation-states (particularly nuclear superpowers) distracts from the truth. The fact that people react negatively to this factual consideration of evil in the context of nation-state politics is not my fault. I did not "take them on a flamewar tangent". And shying away from talki…

Sorry, but "what global superpower hasn't" counts as shallow flamebait on this site, and certainly a flamewar tangent. Just look at the responses you provoked. We don't want that here, and we ban accounts that do it, so please don't do it again.

Re: Surely you're joking, Comrade Beria

#130
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beria was, without a doubt, a cruel maniac. Chertok in his books - https://www.nasa.gov/connect/ebooks/rockets_people_vol1_deta... , but the episod is, I think, from volume IV - tells the following story. Soviet space designers are in the beginning of the work on the manned Moon expedition. Korolev and Glushko - two towering figures, the best rocket constructor and best engine constructor of the country - can't find…

Doesn't mean you can't do the same by using the purse instead of the scourge. If two parties can't find an agreement, and they are told they both lose financing (or position) if they don't, they would suddenly discover it. Too many deadlocks in modern world which could be resolved a la Solomon.

> Too many deadlocks in modern world which could be resolved a la Solomon.

Let's take a step back and think how bizarre the common reactionary appeal to cruelty is anywhere outside its political context. We want more cruelty! Is that a goal? Why are we posting fantasies about how great cruelty would be? On top of that, it's completely baseless.

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